Missile weapons and hills.

[tyronec]

As far as I can see hills have no effect on missile fire, except with the ability to fire overhead.

I recently had a game where one army formed up with part of it's force on a hill, medium infantry in the front line and massed archers behind. The opposing force approached the hill with a similar mix of missile troops and medium infantry and there was a firefight before the hill was attacked. The attacking force had a significant advantage in the firefight because they were both able to take advantage of the 'corner' of the hill and also rotate their troops as disruptions occurred. The defenders were more cramped and had difficulty replacing front line disordered units and in general moving anything around - so in this case defending on a hill was more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
If it were a ridge rather than a hill then things would balance out.

Looking at it from an historical perspective, firing downhill missiles would have more momentum and uphill less - so that would justify a bonus.
From the game point of view a missile battle from a hill looks to be advantage attacker, which seems wrong.

How a about a SMALL POA benefit for firing downhill and a SMALL POA malus for firing uphill.

[Swuul]

Personally I regard the possibility to shoot over friendlies as a massive benefit. Place skirmishers ahead in a line, and the opposing force has no other option but to shoot at the skirmishers, while your archers on the hill can rain down death on whoever they prefer. In your example your archers would be able to shoot at the hostile medium infantry, as once they are disrupted (or better yet, fragmented), your medium infantry could without a sweat go to town with melee attacks (first routing their mediums, then nuking their massed archers). What is more, if the hill is steep enough, even your skirmishers can fall back after the first hostile volleys, and join in on the shooting fune

[tyronec]

Personally I regard the possibility to shoot over friendlies as a massive benefit.

It certainly is, the same advantage is also there to shoot over friendlies (and enemies) up to a hill - so the advantage goes to the side which can bring more firepower to bear.

[rbodleyscott]

Personally I regard the possibility to shoot over friendlies as a massive benefit.

It certainly is, the same advantage is also there to shoot over friendlies (and enemies) up to a hill - so the advantage goes to the side which can bring more firepower to bear.

Troops cannot shoot over friendlies or enemies up to a hill.

[tyronec]

tyronec wrote: ↑15 Dec 2020 15:53
Personally I regard the possibility to shoot over friendlies as a massive benefit.
It certainly is, the same advantage is also there to shoot over friendlies (and enemies) up to a hill - so the advantage goes to the side which can bring more firepower to bear.
Troops cannot shoot over friendlies or enemies up to a hill.

So I got this partly wrong, I didn't realise there was another condition in our game.
Troops can shoot uphill over other troops if they are on a hill. In the pic the Persians are shooting from a 25 slope to a 100 hill over troops between the shooters and target. So it is not such a big deal as I thought it was but given the preponderance of valleys in the terrain maps would think it does occur fairly often.

I don't seem to be able to add a picture, not sure if am doing it wrong or if I don't have permission.

[Swuul]

Shooting through gaps is something you can do anywhere. But you can shoot over troops only if the shooter is above the intervening unit or the shooter is artillery. Just deploy a skirmisher screen in front of the hill (bonus points for deploying them on the slope of a steep hill), and your troops behind them are safe from hostile shooting.

[rbodleyscott]

Shooting through gaps is something you can do anywhere.

And the LOS algorithm for doing so is fairly generous.

[tyronec]

Shooting through gaps is something you can do anywhere. But you can shoot over troops only if the shooter is above the intervening unit or the shooter is artillery. Just deploy a skirmisher screen in front of the hill (bonus points for deploying them on the slope of a steep hill), and your troops behind them are safe from hostile shooting.

Here is the screenshot showing you can shoot overhead uphill.

fire.jpg (357.08 KiB) Viewed 1933 times

[rbodleyscott]

Your unit is in fact on the corner of a hill and hence is on higher ground than the units it is shooting over. (Which is what matters, not the relative height of the shooting and target units).

[kronenblatt]

Shooting through gaps is something you can do anywhere. But you can shoot over troops only if the shooter is above the intervening unit or the shooter is artillery. Just deploy a skirmisher screen in front of the hill (bonus points for deploying them on the slope of a steep hill), and your troops behind them are safe from hostile shooting.

Here is the screenshot showing you can shoot overhead uphill.fire.jpg

Your unit is in fact on the corner of a hill and hence is on higher ground than the units it is shooting over. (Which is what matters, not the relative height of the shooting and target units).

Very interesting clarification, Richard: thanks!

So this means, Tyrone, that you could actually verify this by checking whether the unit highlighted in red in the picture below can actually shoot at Chithrafana and his Persian Immortals. Can it?

ShootingOverTarget.jpg (147.81 KiB) Viewed 1911 times

[tyronec]

So this means, Tyrone, that you could test this by checking whether the unit highlighted in red in the picture below can actually shoot at Chithrafana and his Persian Immortals. Can it?

No it can't, because the intervening unit is on the same level. But it could be shot at by yer man on the hill.

As Richard says, you can only shoot over intervening units if the shooters are higher than the blocking unit.
This has been helpful to me as I didn't understand that correctly when I made my first post.

I still think there is a case for a small POA bias firing uphill/downhill as with attackers using nearby hills, firing through gaps in units and other manoeuverings a missile defensive force on a hill has some handicaps.

[kronenblatt]

So this means, Tyrone, that you could test this by checking whether the unit highlighted in red in the picture below can actually shoot at Chithrafana and his Persian Immortals. Can it?

No it can't, because the intervening unit is on the same level. But it could be shot at by yer man on the hill.

As Richard says, you can only shoot over intervening units if the shooters are higher than the blocking unit.
This has been helpful to me as I didn't understand that correctly when I made my first post.

I still think there is a case for a small POA bias firing uphill/downhill as with attackers using nearby hills, firing through gaps in units and other manoeuverings a missile defensive force on a hill has some handicaps.

Helpful to me as well. Thanks, Richard, for explaining and thanks, Tyrone, for verifying in-game.