[Game issue] [Road issue] [8.6.1]

[Erik2]

Here's a prime example of what I think is the flawed road handling in OOB.
This Mathilda prefers (actually insists) to move off the road/forest and into difficult terrain. I can't move it along the road even though it should be able according to the hex highlight.
Not something you would see in real life.

Roads should always work as roads no matter what the terrain, and all vehicles should prefer the road.
The combat stats should be reduced since the unit is considered to be traveling in column.

Pardon the red font, but I have reported this issue since the original OOB-beta years back.
I'd really like a good explanation why the devs consider the current behaviour correct (or anyone else for that matter).
As we say in Norway; "Kjør debatt"

road.jpg (169.87 KiB) Viewed 2440 times

[terminator]

Looks like there’s an enemy unit hiding in the forest?

[Erik2]

not in the forest target itself, but to the left of this hex. Shouldn't impede movement.

[terminator]

Zone of control (ZOC) ?

Spaces adjacent to a unit impact the ability of opposing units to move or attack. This is a very common mechanism in wargames. There are many variations, including "Locking ZOCs", where units are frozen and cannot leave, "Soft ZOCs", where units can move from ZOC to ZOC, but at some penalty, and others.

Zone_of_control_diagram.jpg (58.49 KiB) Viewed 2419 times

[terminator]

Here's a prime example of what I think is the flawed road handling in OOB.
This Mathilda prefers (actually insists) to move off the road/forest and into difficult terrain. I can't move it along the road even though it should be able according to the hex highlight.
Not something you would see in real life.

I can move along the road according to the hex highlight:

Capture d’écran (1610).jpg (396 KiB) Viewed 2410 times

Capture d’écran (1611).jpg (423.01 KiB) Viewed 2410 times

[GabeKnight]

Erik, same as terminator, I also have trouble understanding the issue here.

[Erik2]

in my experience ZOC does not hinder movement from the outside into the ZOC. Why would it do that? The friendly unit does not know there's an enemy unit there until it enters the hex.
ZOC is in effect when you want to slide along an enemy unit or move from one enemy ZOC to a different one. At least that is my experience from 100+ other war-games
Maybe ZOC is handled differently in OOB...

Anyway, this specific instance does not mean that road movement is handled badly in OOB.
It is easy to test. Create a road from clear to forest and back to clear. Note how units prefer to move off the road and around the forest
I showed this to adherbal eons ago, but he did not consider it important enough as far as I remember.

[terminator]

This system of roads in the forests may not be logical but perhaps it is more realistic because I do not know if at the time there were so many roads and in what state they were ?
At least that’s what I tell myself to find an explanation...

[Erik2]

I could believe in this behavior for tracks, but OOB doesn't differ between paved roads or tracks in this issue.

A truck moves at 80 km/h on the Autobahn. The Autobahn then enters a forest and the truck prefers to move around it, cause it is faster.
Oh well.

[GabeKnight]

I still don't understand what happened in the example screenshot to piss you off, but we're in agreement concerning roads in OoB. Some roads through mountains could be debatable, I mean there's not always an autobahn present in the mountains and many bridges wouldn't support the weight of a tank, I guess, but a paved road through forest or dense forest or rough desert should work as a road, yeah.

[Erik2]

I may have misunderstood what happened with waltzing Mathilda. It just looked weird during play.

The main thing for me/us is that paved roads behave like just that.

[terminator]

Mathilda tanks are very slow tanks...

[Erik2]

Mathilda tanks are very slow tanks...

It can't move into the forest even if it starts the turn next to it, on a road as far as I know.

[GabeKnight]

't move into the forest even if it starts the turn next to it, on a road as far as I know.

Maybe we're talking also about this issue, where units should be able to enter certain hexes (like engineers into dense forests) and can not for whatever reason...!

[Erik2]

't move into the forest even if it starts the turn next to it, on a road as far as I know.

Maybe we're talking also about this issue, where units should be able to enter certain hexes (like engineers into dense forests) and can not for whatever reason...!

That may be. It is often difficult to point to what any issue is specifically.
But I stand by my view on paved roads anyway

[Admiral_Horthy]

I was just thinking about this yesterday night!!

It seems to me, that Track and Light Track are ignoring roads by factory default, while Wheel for example not. See in the chassis.csv, why track have separate Road factor fields, while Wheel has none entered - but they care with road tiles.
Halftrack however, seems to ignore road AND have no road reduction at all. I can say it is flawed because it does not move faster on road. (I have an SdKfz 3 Maultier modded).

Can you guys confirm as well?

It is even more wild if it's about a transport.. in some cases on foot, is better than on transport.

[GabeKnight]

Admiral, don't forget the "basic" road settings inside the "climates.txt" file. And I'm not sure right now how the game rounds fractions, as movement points have to be integer.

Although I did not change the road factors during the tests with different climates/speeds settings I was doing for my mod, basically I suspect it to work okay. I'm pretty sure that the track_light/halftrack/track moved faster on roads.

[Admiral_Horthy]

't move into the forest even if it starts the turn next to it, on a road as far as I know.

Maybe we're talking also about this issue, where units should be able to enter certain hexes (like engineers into dense forests) and can not for whatever reason...!

That may be. It is often difficult to point to what any issue is specifically.
But I stand by my view on paved roads anyway

Road handling is not a bug... Roads are not terrain type, but modifier. Let me try to explain myself and the system I (almost) learned.

Let's say, Matilda II. It has 4 Tracked movement points.

On the picture, you try to move a hex on village, modified by paved road. (summer climate).

Moving (entering) the next hext cost you 2 movement points halved by the road factor (Summer, paved = 0.5), so you have 3 movement points remaining. To enter Hills (rough) hex, without road you need 4 more points, but you have only 3. IF, you move forward to the forest (road), that would cost you 6 movement points, halved by road factor = 3. You have 0 movement points. It should work like this, but what's wrong? The movement arrow... No matter what I could not achieve that situation(

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[Admiral_Horthy]

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[Horst]

This road issue is hopeless. Do you really think that after 5 years something will change there?
Horthy's picture above displays it so nicely how sad road modifiers on terrain work sometimes.
The modifier-system isn't that bad for hills (and mountains) and weather conditions, but I would also gladly change it that wood and jungle is ignored. I'd still tolerate a modifier for scorched terrain, swamps, rice, etc.
Realistically seen, off-road capable vehicles would avoid roads as much as possible if enemy threats are expected, as these are typically defended by hidden AT-gun positions. In that case, it's plausible if units can't fully make use of roads.

Whatever will change or most likey not, I can only recommend as map designer to avoid placing rails & roads on slow terrain types where it matters. It doesn't look so great, but at least you got your trucks rolling fast where you want them.
Such a jungle road doesn't look that bad either:

jungle-road.jpg (662.22 KiB) Viewed 2141 times

I'd welcome more dense tree deco-tiles as the 2-3 trees on most deco-tiles often looks too sparingly. Imagine deco-tiles that almost look identical to the real forest and jungle tiles but behave like the underneath terrain type.