As I work through the v3 rules with my 10mm armies I am beginning to grasp the logic and flow of the game and can see it can play quite quickly, but am not there yet.
For a new player whilst the rulebook is great and goes to considerable lengths to explain things two concepts that could do with illustrations to convey theme quickly are the threatened flank and rear support. Just as I think I am speeding along in the game I come to the CMT roles and everything comes to a grinding halt as I try and digest the words in the glossary! Its probably me but having invested a considerable amount of time in working through the concepts it does feel the rule book is not helful explaining these.
Are there any diagrammes or tutorials that could be shared that will help me to grasp these or recognise my interpretation of the words is correct..
Appreciate any help on this..
Thankyou
Illustrated Examples - Threatened Flank and Rear Support
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philqw78
- Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
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Re: Illustrated Examples - Threatened Flank and Rear Support
Ask a specific q and I'm sure somebody could do an illustration on here
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
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grahambriggs
- Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
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Re: Illustrated Examples - Threatened Flank and Rear Support
Hello Shamus, let me try and help on threatened flanks. Firstly, it only applies to battle troops (page 13), not skirmishers. The definition of threatened flank is on p135. There are two ways to have a threatened flank:
- enemy battle troops could charge the flank/rear in their next turn.
or
- any part of the BG is within 6MU of the side table edges or your own base table edge.
The table edge thing is simple to work out. Put a 6MU measure down and If any bit at all of the BG is within 6 of the edge, you get a -1.
The enemy BG able to charge it is a bit more tricky. Let's say your battle group is taking a cohesion test (not complex move test because threatened flanks don't affect them) and want to know if their flank is threatened by enemy battle troops (not skirmishers because they don't cause a threatened flank). In order for them to threaten the flank, firstly look at the positions of the unit and ask yourself "if literally nothing moved or changed until next enemy charge phase, could that enemy unit charge my flank or rear?".
In working this out, we already know to ignore enemy skirmishers (above). Also, ignore fragmented enemy (and enemy routers) - p115 tells you fragmented troops cannot charge. It doesn't matter that they might be bolstered at some point; they are fragmented when you take the cohesion test which is what counts. Some troops cannot charge at all, so aren't a threat (battle wagons and artillery - top of page 56). There are other special cases (fortifications and being in orb formation can protect you and battle wagons won't count as being charged in the flank/rear) but they are rare so ignore them for now.
But let's say it's an enemy unit of cavalry who are steady. Firstly, they need to be in charge range of you (5MU if in open terrain - Declaration of Charges on p50). How do you know if they are threatening your flank/rear? Page 54 (first three bullets) gives you the definition of flank/rear charges, and the diagram at the top of page 55 shows you graphically. Note in this diagram that there is a BG of light horse unable to execute a flank charge. There is a unit of light horse able to charge the enemy rear (but they are skirmishers so do not give a -1 for a threatened flank. However, there is a unit of cavalry also that is able to charge the flank, so that will cause a -1.
Hope this helps.
- enemy battle troops could charge the flank/rear in their next turn.
or
- any part of the BG is within 6MU of the side table edges or your own base table edge.
The table edge thing is simple to work out. Put a 6MU measure down and If any bit at all of the BG is within 6 of the edge, you get a -1.
The enemy BG able to charge it is a bit more tricky. Let's say your battle group is taking a cohesion test (not complex move test because threatened flanks don't affect them) and want to know if their flank is threatened by enemy battle troops (not skirmishers because they don't cause a threatened flank). In order for them to threaten the flank, firstly look at the positions of the unit and ask yourself "if literally nothing moved or changed until next enemy charge phase, could that enemy unit charge my flank or rear?".
In working this out, we already know to ignore enemy skirmishers (above). Also, ignore fragmented enemy (and enemy routers) - p115 tells you fragmented troops cannot charge. It doesn't matter that they might be bolstered at some point; they are fragmented when you take the cohesion test which is what counts. Some troops cannot charge at all, so aren't a threat (battle wagons and artillery - top of page 56). There are other special cases (fortifications and being in orb formation can protect you and battle wagons won't count as being charged in the flank/rear) but they are rare so ignore them for now.
But let's say it's an enemy unit of cavalry who are steady. Firstly, they need to be in charge range of you (5MU if in open terrain - Declaration of Charges on p50). How do you know if they are threatening your flank/rear? Page 54 (first three bullets) gives you the definition of flank/rear charges, and the diagram at the top of page 55 shows you graphically. Note in this diagram that there is a BG of light horse unable to execute a flank charge. There is a unit of light horse able to charge the enemy rear (but they are skirmishers so do not give a -1 for a threatened flank. However, there is a unit of cavalry also that is able to charge the flank, so that will cause a -1.
Hope this helps.
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grahambriggs
- Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
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Re: Illustrated Examples - Threatened Flank and Rear Support
Rear support is at least all in one place in the rule book (page 134). I agree a diagram would have been useful.
In working out rear support you need to consider a few things. Firstly, battle wagons and BGs facing in more than one direction (for example if hit in flank and some bases have turned) never count rear support. But let's look at the standard situation. Secondly, what is the quality of the rear support? It must be at least as good as the unit being supported. So, for example, average troops can give rear support to average or poor troops but not to superior or elite troops. Having covered these general points, you need to consider (matching with the bullets on p134)
* are there battle troop bases to my rear or next to one that is?? Look at the diagram on p52. It's there for another purpose but ignore the charges. We'll be the bases facing up the page. We have six bases of our fine medium foot fellows who seem to be fighting the enemy who look to be Romans. Have our brave lads got friends to their rear? Well, they've got two bases of battle group B to their rear. And to the left of those two bases (the central file of the group) there are two more bases in edge to edge contact. They are three to a base, so clearly battle troops. Hence there are four bases that could count. The left hand file of B can't count - it's not in edge contact with a base directly to the rear of our guys that are fighting, and battle group A is nowhere near directly behind the medium foot so they don't count.
* are there enough bases to give rear support? Let's say our brave MF started off the battle with 8 bases and are down to 6. You need half of 8 bases to be enough rear support. We have 4 (above) so the numbers work.
* Are they close enough? For mounted, it's 12 MU. So put a measure down and check whether all 4 supporting bases are within 4 MU. They clearly are.
* is the support facing in the right direction? The way this works is to look at the front edge of the supporting unit and if necessary project the line sideways. Are the MF in front of that line? Clearly yes. However, if BG B turned 180 degrees and faced the rear, that would no longer be the case and they wouldn't count as rear support.
* Are there enemy troops inbetween the supporting mounted and the MF? Clearly not in this case.
* Are the troop who would give rear support in hand to hand combat themselves? If they are, they won't count.
The gist of the rear support rules then is: are there friendly troops behind me of enough quality and numbers that are close enough and pointed in the right direction who are not having to deal with other enemy to make me feel a bit happier?
In working out rear support you need to consider a few things. Firstly, battle wagons and BGs facing in more than one direction (for example if hit in flank and some bases have turned) never count rear support. But let's look at the standard situation. Secondly, what is the quality of the rear support? It must be at least as good as the unit being supported. So, for example, average troops can give rear support to average or poor troops but not to superior or elite troops. Having covered these general points, you need to consider (matching with the bullets on p134)
* are there battle troop bases to my rear or next to one that is?? Look at the diagram on p52. It's there for another purpose but ignore the charges. We'll be the bases facing up the page. We have six bases of our fine medium foot fellows who seem to be fighting the enemy who look to be Romans. Have our brave lads got friends to their rear? Well, they've got two bases of battle group B to their rear. And to the left of those two bases (the central file of the group) there are two more bases in edge to edge contact. They are three to a base, so clearly battle troops. Hence there are four bases that could count. The left hand file of B can't count - it's not in edge contact with a base directly to the rear of our guys that are fighting, and battle group A is nowhere near directly behind the medium foot so they don't count.
* are there enough bases to give rear support? Let's say our brave MF started off the battle with 8 bases and are down to 6. You need half of 8 bases to be enough rear support. We have 4 (above) so the numbers work.
* Are they close enough? For mounted, it's 12 MU. So put a measure down and check whether all 4 supporting bases are within 4 MU. They clearly are.
* is the support facing in the right direction? The way this works is to look at the front edge of the supporting unit and if necessary project the line sideways. Are the MF in front of that line? Clearly yes. However, if BG B turned 180 degrees and faced the rear, that would no longer be the case and they wouldn't count as rear support.
* Are there enemy troops inbetween the supporting mounted and the MF? Clearly not in this case.
* Are the troop who would give rear support in hand to hand combat themselves? If they are, they won't count.
The gist of the rear support rules then is: are there friendly troops behind me of enough quality and numbers that are close enough and pointed in the right direction who are not having to deal with other enemy to make me feel a bit happier?