Most serious MP problem, ever! Pls read asap.

[sIg3b]

In my second tourny game, I pressed "Watch the replay again" ***and got a different outcome.***

Different breaks and pursuing and my rout% afterwards was different (changed from 15 to 11). Now this IS alarming. Could be used for endless cheating -replay again until optimum result.

[sIg3b]

This was a truly ghastly Halloween-like experience. The replay was not even similar to the original turn of events. (Much better for me, but I absolutely do not want to profit from a bug.)

[rbodleyscott]

That is indeed alarming. I will draw it to Pip's attention.

[sIg3b]

That is indeed alarming. I will draw it to Pip's attention.

Thank you for taking this seriously. This is what I think happened:

1. My opponent left most of his melees to auto-resolution.
2. He sent his turn to the server and it was saved.
3. I got the turn and the melees were resolved on my system.
4. At this point, the result was *not* saved anywhere.
5. I pressed replay and the melees were re-resolved with new die rolls.
6. My sanity dropped a few points.

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[sIg3b]

Any news on this, yet?

If you can reroll rallies and some melees, secure MP is basically non-existent.

[76mm]

[rbodleyscott]

Any news on this, yet?

Give us a chance. Pip works normal hours, so has the weekends off.

[pipfromslitherine]

We are looking into this as a matter of urgency. Thanks for the report.

If you rewatch over and over, do you see different results each time. Or just a single different replay (so the initial replay is version A and all rewatches are version B)?

Cheers

Pip

[sIg3b]

Any news on this, yet?

Give us a chance. Pip works normal hours, so has the weekends off.

I understand.

I am just scared about how many MP outcomes may already have been changed without people even noticing.
If this is a general problem with the MP turn order and when the game is saved, it will likely apply not only to the tourny, but to all MP and perhaps even to P&S MP also.

[sIg3b]

We are looking into this as a matter of urgency. Thanks for the report.

If you rewatch over and over, do you see different results each time. Or just a single different replay (so the initial replay is version A and all rewatches are version B)?

Cheers

Pip

I didn´t try this, because I obviously didn´t want to change a tournament outcome even once, let alone multiple times.

I do not really see where I could experiment with this in MP without cheating, so basically the watch replay again function is now taboo for me.

But how about you set up an MP game with someone for the purpose of producing this effect? Just never resolve the melees manually, always leave them to the machine to resolve, then let the other person watch the replay multiple times.

I am relatively sure this is not a problem on my system, but a universal problem with the turn order. The part of events that happens *after* the other player has sent the turn, but *before* you start to manually move, -left over melees and rallies- is not preserved.

[pipfromslitherine]

Understood - and bravo for your commitment to not gaining any advantage We believe we have determined the issue, and it should only affect a small set of specific situations. A fix will be pushed as soon as is possible. Thanks again for reporting this.

Cheers

Pip

[rbodleyscott]

As Pip says, we have a fix for this. However, it needs to be tested properly with a quick open beta test, along with some other changes and fixes.

In the meantime it is completely avoidable. To prevent it from happening, Side B needs to activate all their melees each turn rather than letting the computer resolve them automatically after they End their Turn.

Please pass on that information to your opponents.

[ericdoman1]

Have no idea what that means but will pass on to other players. Who is side a and side b. If I am side B, how do I do that. Again bought FOG II 24 October. Had my first multiplayer game on 1st November so \I am a newbie. The Random AI thingy you mentioned this hasn't carried on/over into multiplayer

[rbodleyscott]

Have no idea what that means but will pass on to other players. Who is side a and side b. If I am side B, how do I do that.

Don't worry about who is side A and who is Side B, just activate all your melees in your turn. Don't hit the End Turn button without activating them all. Hotkey L will list your units and say which ones have melees outstanding.

We will be fixing the issue in an update as soon as we have beta tested the fix.

Again bought FOG II 24 October. Had my first multiplayer game on 1st November so \I am a newbie. The Random AI thingy you mentioned this hasn't carried on/over into multiplayer

No global mods don't work in MP, they would break it.

[sIg3b]

In the meantime it is completely avoidable. To prevent it from happening, Side B needs to activate all their melees each turn rather than letting the computer resolve them automatically after they End their Turn.

Please pass on that information to your opponents.

Definitely recommended; but not sure that it solves the problem completely: Re-watching the replay would still reroll player A´s rallies I believe.

[rbodleyscott]

In the meantime it is completely avoidable. To prevent it from happening, Side B needs to activate all their melees each turn rather than letting the computer resolve them automatically after they End their Turn.

Please pass on that information to your opponents.

Definitely recommended; but not sure that it solves the problem completely: Re-watching the replay would still reroll player A´s rallies I believe.

It would, but the RNG would be in synch, so the results would be identical.

The problem was not due to the melees being run automatically, but due to the RNG getting out of synch. As long as everything is run through the same scripts, in the same order, the RNG will always produce the same results for each event. That is the basis on which MP works.

The potential for the RNG to get out of synch arose because the order of automatic melee resolution for side B (the side that would be run by the AI in an SP game) was erroneously being decided by an AI script using non-MP-safe RNG. The AI script should not have been run at all in MP, but due to an oversight it currently is. This means that potentially the automated melees could get run in a different order with the initial run through, and each replay. That then throws the RNG out of synch, potentially altering the results for the whole replay, and hence the situation at the start of the player's turn.

So the fix is simply to prevent the AI sorting routine from being run in MP (which it shouldn't have been in the first place), and then the automated melees will always get run in the same sequence on the initial run through and each replay. Thus the RNG stays in synch and everything is the same each time, however many automated melees, rally tests, proximity tests for routs and lost generals, pursuits, pursuit charges, pursuit impact combats etc.etc.etc get run in the automated phase.

In the meantime, the workaround is not to leave any melees outstanding to be resolved automatically by the computer. This gives the AI routine nothing to do, and hence prevents it from desynching the RNG.

(Why did the AI melee resolution order sorting routine use non-MP-safe RNG in the first place? Because the calculations required 2,000 RNG accesses per unit, and the system was logging all MP-safe RNG calls in MP to the Debug Log. This caused a drastic slow down, hence the need to use the non-logged RNG. It wouldn't have been an issue apart from the scripts erroneously not being excluded from running the AI routine in MP).

We are pretty sure we have the right fix, but good practice dictates that we beta test it before making it official.

[sIg3b]

Ahhh, thank you for the comprehensive explanation! This makes perfect sense, and I am much more happy when I understand things.