Battle Academy: Team Yankee

[MikeAP]

Battle Academy 2 game engine
Cold War setting, following a similar story line as Team Yankee (by Howard Coyle)

+Real time cooperative game mode (like Panzer Corps II)
+Operational level to maneuver units (Close Combat)

[Pixel]

A introductory level beer and pretzels Cold War Era game in the BA style could be a lot of fun. Although we do have the groggier stuff like Flashpoint Campaigns: Southern Storm to look forward too as well.

[MikeAP]

Although we do have the groggier stuff like Flashpoint Campaigns: Southern Storm to look forward too as well.

Yeah, unfortunately not all of us are looking forward to it.

Also really funny to me, that FC is considered a 'grog' game. In my opinion, not a very realistic depiction of combat. Everything from the awful orders process, to massive amounts of micromanagement, to laughable combat engagements....yeah. I wouldn't even classify FC as a wargame. Maybe fantasy?

[Pixel]

Sigh, everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess. FC has both strengths and weaknesses. It is arguably a more complex game than BA and I think most here would agree.

Other computer games in this space I guess would be Armored Brigade or WinSPMBT (although that is not just a Cold War era focused game).

Similarly with TOAW IV or CMO that are focused on rather different things. Combat Mission doesn't have a Cold War entry really other than the older Afghanistan one. All these have different pros and cons with different levels of simulation and abstraction.

CMO, CM, and FC have professional military versions. Not that that means that they are a be all end all for a "realistic" depiction of combat. But it does say that real world militaries do find a use for these products in some specific use cases.

I presume Shadow Empire or Fantasy General 2 or Battle Academy given your particular requirements might not meet your standards to classify them as wargames and that is perfectly ok. Perhaps your contention is merely with the use of the term grog. Regardless, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. Of course one may also critique FC as a fantasy as it is a representation of a real setting but depicts a fictional conflict that never happened to go hot IRL. Moreover, any game one might consider to be a wargame or not is not necessarily a strict simulation. Wargame models are usually not strict simulations but representations that serve different purposes.....in the hobby gaming space that purpose is entertainment.

In my opinion to be a wargame something does not necessarily need to involve real world entities but could easily involve adversarial conflict of a military nature in other settings including fictional ones. A lot of "realistic" real world setting wargames also depict conflicts that aren't necessarily refighting historical battles either. Although many folks do like historical settings as one can try their hand at being a virtual Caesar, Hannibal, Patton, or Napoleon, etc. YMMV of course.

The level of realism is dependent on the type of wargame and the aim and objectives; the assumption that every wargame should represent ‘The War’ as opposed to ‘A War’ needs to be examined.

Also see Peter Perla's definition of a wargame:

‘Adversarial by nature, wargaming is a representation of military activities, using rules, data, and procedures, not involving actual military forces, and in which the flow of events is affected by, and in turn affects, decisions made during the course of those events by players acting for the actors, factions, factors and frictions pertinent to those military activities.’

For more on this whole "what is a wargame" can of worms see: https://wargamingcommunity.wordpress.co ... a-wargame/ and http://lbsconsultancy.co.uk/our-approach/what-is-it/

That said don't play it if you don't like it or find the model(s) used to be flawed to the extent that your fun and or immersion or other objective in playing it in the first place isn't being met.

[Pixel]

I think I get where your criticism of the way CM and Flashpoint Campaigns work is coming from given your post in another thread.

I think WEGO is a great concept that is used poorly in video games - most developers don't understand how military decision making is done within a chain of subordinate commands and their depiction is usually highly unrealistic and very un-fun to me.

I would say this is less to do perhaps with lack of developer understanding but rather due to the difficulty in getting a AI to believably model that sort of chain of subordinate commands and individual AI pixeltruppen initiative and leadership in a believable way. Is is possible to some extent (maybe look at Command Op 2 for example or Graviteam (given that it is a less tell every guy where to go sort of affair). I also think that many hobby wargamer types like having the micro-management that frustrates you in CM and FC. Is such omniscient micromanagement inherently unrealistic to a degree yes it is. That said I imagine that the type of chain of command modeling if done successfully would both delight some hobby gamers while perhaps rather flummoxing others. But, yes the promise and potential of WEGO systems probably can't be unlocked unless you either have human players in all or most of the subordinate commands or an AI capable of modeling them sufficiently. The bonus is definitely a major reduction of micromanagement and likely a general increase in the plausibility AKA realism or at least authenticity of the game system when it comes to the modeling of command structure.

[Pixel]

I would also add that a certain set of hobby gamers are mighty enamored with the concept of monster games and or smaller games where you still manage the direct control of all of your units with varying levels of generally fairly unrealistic omniscience. WEGO as it is implemented currently in some games shakes that up but isn't going as far as you, I take it, would like to see it go. Especially, as concerns actually modeling a AI driven command structure that assists the player in a fashion similar to an actual military organization.

[MikeAP]

"If I Had More Time, I Would Have Written a Shorter Letter" - Pascal

Abstraction is difficult, and I'm sure that modelling abstract systems actually requires more time and creativity - RATHER than actually building a more detailed model.

It is also something that I feel most 'wargame' developers shy away from - for several reasons
1. Due to its difficulty, as mentioned above
2. Fear of having a game that is abstract in some areas, but not others (maintaining a balance)
3. Trying to 'over' develop their games - MUST MODEL EVERY RIVET!

Many years ago I became OK with abstraction- games that try too hard (Flashpoint Campaigns/Armored Brigade) are not fun, and I think miss the mark very hard. It's just sad that people think that FC is a 'realistic' wargame. Same with Armored Brigade.

[justis]

I can give my opinion on this game, I have never tried it

[MrsWargamer]

Hmm, I didn't realize this was an argument thread.

Initially looked like a BA TY mod thread.

[SunnyLeslie]

"If I Had More Time, I Would Have Written a Shorter Letter" - Pascal

Abstraction is difficult, and I'm sure that modelling abstract systems actually requires more time and creativity - RATHER than actually building a more detailed model.

It is also something that I feel most 'wargame' developers shy away from - for several reasons
1. Due to its difficulty, as mentioned above
2. Fear of having a game that is abstract in some areas, but not others (maintaining a balance)
3. Trying to 'over' develop their games - MUST MODEL EVERY RIVET!

Many years ago I became OK with abstraction- games that try too hard (Flashpoint Campaigns/Armored Brigade) are not fun, and I think miss the mark very hard. It's just sad that people think that FC is a 'realistic' wargame. Same with Armored Brigade.

It seems to me that in 2021 it is already difficult to come up with a fundamentally new plot. Now everything comes down to entertainment, picture quality and, to be honest, a fairly simple functionality. Games are getting simpler and more customizable. Unfortunately, the mentality of the players has changed. They want to get everything and quickly, few people are ready for round-the-clock farming of ingredients, experience, ammunition, etc.