Carolingian (Charlemagne) Armies

[PDiFolco]

I may not be a very good player, only playing solo but usually winning vs AI at diff 2... But not with a Carolingian army vs Saxons, I'm unable to find a winning tactics.
Army is composed mostly of Def.Shiedwall, a few Dismtd Lancers, and a strong Lancer (armored or not) component. Archers and skirmishers are few and anecdotical, a couple units of Lt cav are also present but aren't very useful.
Thing is Saxons have Off Shiedwall, some Huscarls and a bit of cavalry. But Off Shiedwall are just better than the defensive ones, stand even again Dismtd Lancers, and they Saxons have more of them than me, so the inf battle don't look good.
Enemy numbers are also enough to avoid being flanked by cavalry, and my cav isn't able to win on a frontal attack (in my history book it is supposed to be a shock cav, sort of early chivalry, but here they look like Roman cav ...well).
Thus my front always crumbles after a few melee rounds, without any mean to stop the rout.. And if my cav charges, they lose too !
Any tips ?

[Gaznak]

I would: Max out on Dism Lancers. They are the edge of your knife. Buy a bunch of reg. shieldwalls, don't attack with them unless you need to rescue a unit, the AI will usually attack into you anyway so you will be coming out cost-effective in these fights. I would skip raw shieldwalls a buy a peasant mob or two to get your numbers up. Buy lancers, skip the light spear horse. Put all your cavalry on one flank so you can have 3 infantry generals, but after the game starts move one or two of your horse behind your line to act as a reserve. Light jav horse are very useful since your can rear charge the saxons' raw shieldwalls and do a ton of damage. If you are lucky the AI will stick all its hirdsmen on the same flank as your lancers and you can ZOC them while shooting at them or setting up flanking attacks.

Edit: ran a battle with this setup:







Went more or less to plan... although I cunningly forgot some units in the forest during deployment and had to rush get them to battle. Cavalry played stall tactics on the left, one lancer was moved to support the infantry, dismounted lancers broke through, their flanking attacks combined with rear charges from light horse caused a collapse.

[PDiFolco]

Thx Gaznak !
What you"re advising seems efficient indeed, will try that !

[MikeC_81]

I may not be a very good player, only playing solo but usually winning vs AI at diff 2... But not with a Carolingian army vs Saxons, I'm unable to find a winning tactics.
Army is composed mostly of Def.Shiedwall, a few Dismtd Lancers, and a strong Lancer (armored or not) component. Archers and skirmishers are few and anecdotical, a couple units of Lt cav are also present but aren't very useful.
Thing is Saxons have Off Shiedwall, some Huscarls and a bit of cavalry. But Off Shiedwall are just better than the defensive ones, stand even again Dismtd Lancers, and they Saxons have more of them than me, so the inf battle don't look good.
Enemy numbers are also enough to avoid being flanked by cavalry, and my cav isn't able to win on a frontal attack (in my history book it is supposed to be a shock cav, sort of early chivalry, but here they look like Roman cav ...well).
Thus my front always crumbles after a few melee rounds, without any mean to stop the rout.. And if my cav charges, they lose too !
Any tips ?

Here is the dirty secret to Def Shieldwall armies - they are actually awesome and amazingly cost-effective as long as they have an offensive arm to complement them. 36 point average protected D Spearmen are among the most cost-efficient units in the entire game. They are exactly the same as 42 point O. Spearmen found in the Anglo-Saxon list unless you try to use them on offense and attack but are 6 points cheaper. If O. Spears charge D. Spears, they fight exactly at the same strength. The beauty of these units though is that ZoC locking enemy units is frequently as good as killing them. The Anglo Saxon army has to fill out most of their army with O. Spears or Raw D. Spear (3 ranks). A typical Anglosaxon list will have to fill out around 5 + 6 to 8 O. Spears to form a solid front line along with maybe 4 or 5 Raw D. Spears (around 600-650 points) assuming you are playing on Medium army size. You can match that front line with Average D Spears at a considerable discount (around 575-600 points). Their Huscarls or Hirdsman you can match with your own Average or Superior Dismounted Lancers at equal cost (they are basically reskinned versions of each other) and you can then put the extra 50 points into extra skirmishers or lancers. While Raw D spears are slightly more cost-efficient than Average D Spears since they get the 3rd rank at a cost of only -25 PoA, they are also more brittle when it comes to CT testing though.

Meanwhile, Anglo-Saxons don't have access to lancers while the Frankish armies do. Lancers are a formidable barrier to infantry since infantry trying to charge Lancers get no PoA. As such Lancers can use their ZoCs to effectively delay or zone out a lot of enemy infantry (like their 42 point O. Spears) by planting in a strong defensive position and cut off large parts of the battlefield. Mounted Huscarls can't do this nearly as efficiently since they are not classified as shock cavalry. They also are inferior on the Impact phase vs Lancers of the same quality.

Basically as long as you understand that in this matchup, your D Spears exist to pin enemy infantry and convert the cost savings into extra units elsewhere for the attack, it is actually difficult for the Anglo-Saxons to beat you on equal points. D Spear armies backed by lancers and other good offensive foot are one of the best army comps you can find in the game.

The only time D Spears are a liability is if your entire army is composed of D Spears and you don't have access units that can actually attack. The Frankish armies have plenty of access though.

[kronenblatt]

I may not be a very good player, only playing solo but usually winning vs AI at diff 2... But not with a Carolingian army vs Saxons, I'm unable to find a winning tactics.
Army is composed mostly of Def.Shiedwall, a few Dismtd Lancers, and a strong Lancer (armored or not) component. Archers and skirmishers are few and anecdotical, a couple units of Lt cav are also present but aren't very useful.
Thing is Saxons have Off Shiedwall, some Huscarls and a bit of cavalry. But Off Shiedwall are just better than the defensive ones, stand even again Dismtd Lancers, and they Saxons have more of them than me, so the inf battle don't look good.
Enemy numbers are also enough to avoid being flanked by cavalry, and my cav isn't able to win on a frontal attack (in my history book it is supposed to be a shock cav, sort of early chivalry, but here they look like Roman cav ...well).
Thus my front always crumbles after a few melee rounds, without any mean to stop the rout.. And if my cav charges, they lose too !
Any tips ?

Here is the dirty secret to Def Shieldwall armies - they are actually awesome and amazingly cost-effective as long as they have an offensive arm to complement them. 36 point average protected D Spearmen are among the most cost-efficient units in the entire game. They are exactly the same as 42 point O. Spearmen found in the Anglo-Saxon list unless you try to use them on offense and attack but are 6 points cheaper. If O. Spears charge D. Spears, they fight exactly at the same strength. The beauty of these units though is that ZoC locking enemy units is frequently as good as killing them. The Anglo Saxon army has to fill out most of their army with O. Spears or Raw D. Spear (3 ranks). A typical Anglosaxon list will have to fill out around 5 + 6 to 8 O. Spears to form a solid front line along with maybe 4 or 5 Raw D. Spears (around 600-650 points) assuming you are playing on Medium army size. You can match that front line with Average D Spears at a considerable discount (around 575-600 points). Their Huscarls or Hirdsman you can match with your own Average or Superior Dismounted Lancers at equal cost (they are basically reskinned versions of each other) and you can then put the extra 50 points into extra skirmishers or lancers. While Raw D spears are slightly more cost-efficient than Average D Spears since they get the 3rd rank at a cost of only -25 PoA, they are also more brittle when it comes to CT testing though.

Meanwhile, Anglo-Saxons don't have access to lancers while the Frankish armies do. Lancers are a formidable barrier to infantry since infantry trying to charge Lancers get no PoA. As such Lancers can use their ZoCs to effectively delay or zone out a lot of enemy infantry (like their 42 point O. Spears) by planting in a strong defensive position and cut off large parts of the battlefield. Mounted Huscarls can't do this nearly as efficiently since they are not classified as shock cavalry. They also are inferior on the Impact phase vs Lancers of the same quality.

Basically as long as you understand that in this matchup, your D Spears exist to pin enemy infantry and convert the cost savings into extra units elsewhere for the attack, it is actually difficult for the Anglo-Saxons to beat you on equal points. D Spear armies backed by lancers and other good offensive foot are one of the best army comps you can find in the game.

The only time D Spears are a liability is if your entire army is composed of D Spears and you don't have access units that can actually attack. The Frankish armies have plenty of access though.

Useful thoughts, thanks Mike! That helped me too a lot.

[PDiFolco]

I may not be a very good player, only playing solo but usually winning vs AI at diff 2... But not with a Carolingian army vs Saxons, I'm unable to find a winning tactics.
Army is composed mostly of Def.Shiedwall, a few Dismtd Lancers, and a strong Lancer (armored or not) component. Archers and skirmishers are few and anecdotical, a couple units of Lt cav are also present but aren't very useful.
Thing is Saxons have Off Shiedwall, some Huscarls and a bit of cavalry. But Off Shiedwall are just better than the defensive ones, stand even again Dismtd Lancers, and they Saxons have more of them than me, so the inf battle don't look good.
Enemy numbers are also enough to avoid being flanked by cavalry, and my cav isn't able to win on a frontal attack (in my history book it is supposed to be a shock cav, sort of early chivalry, but here they look like Roman cav ...well).
Thus my front always crumbles after a few melee rounds, without any mean to stop the rout.. And if my cav charges, they lose too !
Any tips ?

Here is the dirty secret to Def Shieldwall armies - they are actually awesome and amazingly cost-effective as long as they have an offensive arm to complement them. 36 point average protected D Spearmen are among the most cost-efficient units in the entire game. They are exactly the same as 42 point O. Spearmen found in the Anglo-Saxon list unless you try to use them on offense and attack but are 6 points cheaper. If O. Spears charge D. Spears, they fight exactly at the same strength. The beauty of these units though is that ZoC locking enemy units is frequently as good as killing them. The Anglo Saxon army has to fill out most of their army with O. Spears or Raw D. Spear (3 ranks). A typical Anglosaxon list will have to fill out around 5 + 6 to 8 O. Spears to form a solid front line along with maybe 4 or 5 Raw D. Spears (around 600-650 points) assuming you are playing on Medium army size. You can match that front line with Average D Spears at a considerable discount (around 575-600 points). Their Huscarls or Hirdsman you can match with your own Average or Superior Dismounted Lancers at equal cost (they are basically reskinned versions of each other) and you can then put the extra 50 points into extra skirmishers or lancers. While Raw D spears are slightly more cost-efficient than Average D Spears since they get the 3rd rank at a cost of only -25 PoA, they are also more brittle when it comes to CT testing though.

Meanwhile, Anglo-Saxons don't have access to lancers while the Frankish armies do. Lancers are a formidable barrier to infantry since infantry trying to charge Lancers get no PoA. As such Lancers can use their ZoCs to effectively delay or zone out a lot of enemy infantry (like their 42 point O. Spears) by planting in a strong defensive position and cut off large parts of the battlefield. Mounted Huscarls can't do this nearly as efficiently since they are not classified as shock cavalry. They also are inferior on the Impact phase vs Lancers of the same quality.

Basically as long as you understand that in this matchup, your D Spears exist to pin enemy infantry and convert the cost savings into extra units elsewhere for the attack, it is actually difficult for the Anglo-Saxons to beat you on equal points. D Spear armies backed by lancers and other good offensive foot are one of the best army comps you can find in the game.

The only time D Spears are a liability is if your entire army is composed of D Spears and you don't have access units that can actually attack. The Frankish armies have plenty of access though.

Useful thoughts, thanks Mike! That helped me too a lot.

Me too !
Was finally able to get a huge win 57/4 using these advice
My error was to buy too many expensive cav, and too many archers, with eventually not enough Def Shield to avoid being flanked. And I used cav too much offensively, they're much better at fixing and defending when attacked, plus are able to flank if the infantry front is long enough!