30 Years War team event - state of play

[ahuyton]

Team Imperial / Catholic

- Awesum4 - Captain
- Lascar
- SMJohnso77
- Tomoegozen (new)
- Snugglebunnies (new)

- Fybyyn (transferred in Round 3)

Team Anti-Imperial / Protestant

- Kiwiwarlord - Captain
- Gdod
- ahuyton
- Gribol
- Fybyyn (adopted)

- Ebenezer (withdrawn))


Round One games

Lascar (Cath) won against Gdod (Prot)
ahuyton (Prot) won against Fybyyn (Cath)
Kiwiwarlord (Prot) won against Awesum4 (Cath)
Tomoegozen (Cath) won against ahuyton (Prot)
Fybyyn (Cath) won against Ebenezer (Prot)

Gribol v Fybyyn (cancelled)

CONCLUSION - a narrow victory for the Bohemian Protestants at the time of evaluation

Round Two games

Kiwiwarlord (Prot) won against SMjohnso77 ( Cath)
ahuyton (Prot) won against Lascar (Cath)
Gdod (Prot) won against Awesum4 (Cath)
Gribol (Prot) won against Tomoegozen (Cath)
ahuyton (Prot) v Snugglebunnies (Cath)

Ebenezer v Fybyyn (CANCELLED)

CONCLUSION - the Lutherans are on the march, time for the Spanish to intervene?

--

Round 3 games - Lutzen

kiwiwarlord (Swedes) won against Lascar (Catholics/Spanish etc)
ahuyton (Swedes) lost horribly to Awseum4 (Catholics/Spanish etc)
gdod (Swedes) lost to Tomoegozen (Catholics/Spanish etc)
gribol (Swedes) lost to Snugglebunnies (Catholics/Spanish etc)
Fybyyn (Swedes) lost to Smjohnso77 ((Catholics/Spanish etc)

--

Round 4 - French 1643-1648 v Spanish 1635-1648

Kiwiwarlord (French) won against v Tomoegozen (Spanish)
Nosy_Rat (French) lost to v Snugglebunnies (Spanish)
Gdod (French) seems to have won against moral victor GentlemanRanker (Spanish)
Cromlechi (French) won against Awesum4 (Spanish)
ahuyton (French) won against smjohnso77 (Spanish)
Gribol (French) won against Lascar (Spanish)

[TomoeGozen]

Hi Alan,

Just a reminder that I probably will be without internet access next week(12th - 19th) if you need to consider that for any team rebuilding.

Cheers,
Dave

[ahuyton]

So Round three comes to an end (see the first post for the list of results) and we move forward to the final phase of the war.

[ahuyton]

With the last results in, we bring this team event to an eventful close.

In sum,

- The battle of the White Mountain saw mixed fortunes for the Bohemians and Catholics
- The 1520 encounters seemed to favour the Protestants, whose firepower was too effective for the Catholic tercios
- Luetzen however, went the other way and gave welcome relied to the beleagured Catholics who pushed the Swedes back across the Baltic
- Finally, resounding victories for the French against the Spanish.

I hope that everone enjoyed the games and being part of a team effort.

Comments, suggestions ryc etc would be helpful. Our next event will be the Ottomans versus various enemies and I am looking for a way to give both sides a good chance and to provide a good narrative to underpin the battles (without making it too complex to manage.

Thanks to all for playing and for contributing to the pleasant atmosphere of the games.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Matches with/against the Ottomans can give pretty lopsided results. Partially I think it's that fewer players are experienced with them, and they *require* a different approach from Western armies.

They have cheap and useful Light Bow cavalry; not quite as fantastic as the Russian Cossacks, which also get Light Lances, but cheaper.

The Janissaries are fantastic - in terrain. They lack pikes so can be ridden down by cavalry in the Open, as their Swordsmen capability is Melee only, not Impact. Still their firepower is formidable, and if Steady they do fine in melee against cavalry, both because of their Swordsmen POA and because Arquebus/Musket armed troops ignore armor even in melee. Furthermore, Pike and Shot cancel out melee POAs such as Swordsmen only if they are Steady. So a unit of Pike and Shot that is Disrupted or Moderately Disordered gets shredded in melee against Janissaries, because the Janissaries will have 100 Swordsmen POA to 0 POA for the Pike and Shot.

Ottoman non-light cavalry is very difficult to use. Their bows are effective against cavalry at least, but being Bow, Swordsmen they have 0 Impact POA - ouch. Furthermore, Swordsmen is at 0POA against Melee Pistols - ouch - unless the pistols are Unsteady, in which case the Swordsmen are at +100. So Turkish cavalry needs to confront Western cavalry either in Disordering terrain, or only when they have Disrupted them first.

So a Disrupted Pike and Shot unit will lose more quickly in melee to Steady Janissaries than to Steady Pike and Shot because instead of even POA-Disruption, it's -100POA-Disruption. The same dynamic is at work in cavalry combat - a Disrupted unit of Horse will be at evenPOA-Disruption if fighting Steady Horse, but against Steady Timariot Sipahis it'll be at -100POA-Disruption - ouch again.

So what this means is that if the Turks can gain an advantage, whether through use of terrain, sweeping flank attacks, or sheer firepower, they are capable of snowballing their way to victory quite rapidly. But if they fail to gain an early advantage and the Western army maintains initiative, they are likely to gradually get shot up and ground down.

That's only regarding later Western armies though. The earlier ones based on Keils will get slaughtered by the Turks, as the Keils are basically worthless point sinks against such a mobile and firepower heavy army. The Russian army is notably quite similar in composition to the Ottomans, especially earlier on.

[Cronos09]

...So what this means is that if the Turks can gain an advantage, whether through use of terrain, sweeping flank attacks, or sheer firepower, they are capable of snowballing their way to victory quite rapidly. But if they fail to gain an early advantage and the Western army maintains initiative, they are likely to gradually get shot up and ground down.

That's only regarding later Western armies though...

If Timariot Sipahis could evade enemy charges (like non-light cavalry in FoG2) in the TYW and Le Roi Soleil modules would it give a great advantage to the Turkish army during these periods?

[gribol]

Comments, suggestions ryc etc would be helpful. Our next event will be the Ottomans versus various enemies and I am looking for a way to give both sides a good chance and to provide a good narrative to underpin the battles (without making it too complex to manage.

I think, that like in the last tournament we can make mix of skirmish and scenario battle.
There are some fine scenarios to play (f. ex. Mohacs, Kahlenberg, Bendictine Pass), and in skirmish battles, with using Extra Nations v 3 mod, the possibilities are unlimited (f. ex. Lots of Persians, Venetians armies).

Comments, suggestions

The idea to make two teams for two opposing forces is very good for me. It can be more exciting that standard tournament games against everyone.
The large founds in skirmish are in my oppinion better than medium, so i hope to keep it in new tounament.
Maybe sometimes we can use more various terrain than agricultural?

[KiwiWarlord]

Many ' Thanks ' Alan for all your hard work in the prep and running of this Event.
Had a very historical feel as we worked through the timeline.
I do like the mixture of historical scenarios and MP skirmish ( where players get to pick the composition of their armies )
Looks like the Event picked up several interested & keen new players, this is what it's all about imo
Have a good rest before the next Event gets under way Alan.
Thanks to all the Protestant Generals for showing the Pope a 'thing or two', the Worm ( Edict of ) has turned

[TomoeGozen]

Yes , thanks Alan for running a fun and interesting event. It was very enjoyable. The Ottoman event sounds interesting too although I'm not sure how much time I will have with the FoG2 digital league about to start.

As to Snugglebunnies' comments above , don't listen to anything he says , he tried to convince us the Spanish had no chance against the French.....

[SnuggleBunnies]

If Timariot Sipahis could evade enemy charges (like non-light cavalry in FoG2) in the TYW and Le Roi Soleil modules would it give a great advantage to the Turkish army during these periods?

Yes, I think the Turkish army is balanced; it just needs a different approach. Generally I find that the Turkish army needs to rely on its good artillery and superior light cavalry arm to try to force the enemy to attack, so that the Janissaries and Sipahis don't have to venture forward into dangerous territory. Giving Bow/Swordsmen Cavalry evasion as in FoGII is not necessary. After all, unlike in FoG, such troops can cause automatic cohesion drops on unengaged enemies, and they have unlimited ammo.

[awesum4]

Thanks to Alan for organising this, and to my opponents for some exciting fun games fought in good spirit, and to my teammates who gave their all and fought to the end.

I look forward to the Ottomans, either being them or beating them.

[ahuyton]

Thanks to everyone for the comments and for playing the games in a good spirit. We had two excellent captains in Andre (Awesum4) and Brian (Kiwiwarlord) and their tactical hints and general organising of the teams was conducive to a successful event.

I realise that some of the games were a bit favourable to one side and that might have been a bit frustrating. However, I hope that you agree that the line-up of games gave us a flavour of the 30 Years War period and maybe that is just as rewarding as the individual winning of games.

So this formula of two teams and four games, mixing scenarios and skirmish games, seems to be a good one. It is enough to keep people committed and interested but not too much that people lose interest and drop out, though we did have a few people go missing on the way. Still it was good that Gribol, Tomoegozen, Cromlechi and SMJohnso77 joined us and played with such skill and enthusiasm.

So next time will be the Ottomans and their enemies. We have some ideas to add flavour to the games and I will start a new thread along those lines. We will probably keep the same teams more or less but invite new players. I hope to get started in November. We already have some interesting tactical guidance from Snuggles and I am sure that our two captains will add to that.

[Athos1660]

So next time will be the Ottomans and their enemies. We have some ideas to add flavour to the games (...)

Just a thought : wouldn't it be nice to use all the great possibilities of the very well-thought-out P&S Campaign mode for a MP 'war' opposing 2 teams : raising troops, fog of war, attrition, automatic sieges, capture of provinces, reinforcement by local field army, campaigning turns, etc. ?

Can't it be done ? Campaign.bsf file, in (...)\Steam\steamapps\common\Pike & Shot Campaigns\Campaigns\5PikeandShotCampaign, says :

Code: Select all

    SetCampaignVar("AISide", 1); // Use this in code to make programming for possible MP version easier. Would be -1 if MP.

PS : If so, I guess players would have to play successively, one battle, move or turn at a time (or each player in command of a given army) and share the same save file.

[awesum4]

Athos,

thanks for your ideas which would be interesting to play as maybe a 2 or 4 player campaign amongst close friends. But I feel they are rather complex.

The beauty of the current structure is its simplicity of operation and flexibility. I like that players who lose interest or have other commitments can leave and new players can just join in and play some games. There are few (or maybe no) rules to learn, no arguments about the draw or whether the right battles have been chosen.

Thanks,

Andre

[Pixel]

@Athos1660

The Italian Wars Campaign that w_michael ran was very interesting but also showed that things can get pretty complex quickly. That one was starting with ~10 players I think. It managed to go from Spring 1499 - Fall 1501. But with all the phases / mechanics plus, allowing 15 days to resolve battles after doing orders to move stuff about it definitely proceeded at a stately pace. Commitment to such campaign type of event is tricky to sustain. It was very entertaining though.

I believe by the end that Naples, Venice, and the Turks had gobbled up most of the smaller states. I played Florence but got taken out early after intriguing a bit too much.

Ottomans sound interesting.

@ahuyton Keep me in the loop. Might be up for the Ottoman event if you run it.

Not sure but the extended nations mod I think....not 100% positive though..... has some Safavid Persians....... however, they are just slightly tweaked ottomans Still that might be worth a look since they were one of the Ottomans biggest enemies.

[Athos1660]

@Pixel : indeed, slow pace might not be the best thing for Campaigns. Thx for the feedback.