I am impressed with unit artwork and detail.

[GiveWarAchance]

I was just doing that mission today too bru.
I barely got that bunker blown in the nick of time with the last bullet fired over that river.
It's actually a hard mission to try and win everything.
I didn't get the airport so I'm trying again.

[bru888]

I was just doing that mission today too bru.
I barely got that bunker blown in the nick of time with the last bullet fired over that river.
It's actually a hard mission to try and win everything.
I didn't get the airport so I'm trying again.

About the airport - try an "end run" to use an American football term. The Poles move up to defend Mlawa. See if you can get a few units behind them, going around from the east.

[GiveWarAchance]

Ya I actually did that. I put down 2 infantry in the east to go with the aux inf & arty there . I put down 1 paratrooper and 1 heavy mech infantry so they are coming down the east side with a Stuka as support. I'm halfway into it now.

[Andy2012]

I know it's early in the Blitzkrieg campaign (Mława scenario), but this . . . this is the "artillery" that they assign to me?

Screenshot 1.jpg

Here, some of the neighborhood kids are playing with it!

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-219-0594-33,_Russland-Mitte-Süd,_Infanteriegeschütz.jpg

EDIT: Oh, I see. Destroy a bunker in three turns and get a real gun! I see what they are doing here!

Screenshot 2.jpg

It may be small, but it can move and shot in the same turn. Somebody around here used them extensively (forgot who, too busy to look around, called them cacafuegos) and was full of praise. I mean, they cost just two supply and a few credits, move fast, require no transport and reduce efficiency neatly. You dont get much damage, but the reduction in efficiency is apparently good, speed too, price as well. And you dont have two or three heavy arty this way, rather 5-6 or more light ones. Neat. Havent tried it, though.

[bru888]

I know it's early in the Blitzkrieg campaign (Mława scenario), but this . . . this is the "artillery" that they assign to me?

Screenshot 1.jpg

Here, some of the neighborhood kids are playing with it!

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-219-0594-33,_Russland-Mitte-Süd,_Infanteriegeschütz.jpg

EDIT: Oh, I see. Destroy a bunker in three turns and get a real gun! I see what they are doing here!

Screenshot 2.jpg

It may be small, but it can move and shot in the same turn. Somebody around here used them extensively (forgot who, too busy to look around, called them cacafuegos) and was full of praise. I mean, they cost just two supply and a few credits, move fast, require no transport and reduce efficiency neatly. You dont get much damage, but the reduction in efficiency is apparently good, speed too, price as well. And you dont have two or three heavy arty this way, rather 5-6 or more light ones. Neat. Havent tried it, though.

Yes, I noticed that despite my disrespect, the little thing did do a job. I would imagine that in a "pack," they could be quite dangerous. Sort of like a group of raptors instead of a t-rex.

[GiveWarAchance]

Ya neat how they made that little gun worthwhile to continue using in the campaign. That shoot & move skill was delightful. So what if it is the equivalent of throwing overripe cantaloupes at the enemy.

[Andy2012]

@bru and gwac: Have you tried how they play in a pack of 4-6 light arty pieces? Would be interesting, dont have time to test for the next few days. I kind of sense an imbalance or possible exploit for multiplayer here. Imagine blasting your opponent's frontline or defense to pieces with these things. He thinks he can handle one or two shots of heavy arty, but 5-6 of these babies - efficiency at zero. Worth trying. If you manage to try it, report back, please.

[GiveWarAchance]

In Gallipoli, military history experts have said that heavy artillery had the potential to turn the tide had they not evacuated. Light artillery didn't churn up the Turkish trenches like heavy arty did, and there was a bad shortage of good artillery for the allies there, especially after the ships left. In the battles when heavy arty was applied, Turkish losses were much greater from their trenches being plowed up so experts say a breakthrough could have happened with more heavy artillery deployed. In France, the 75s were more effective but mainly during battle in a direct fire role.

In the game, the heavy arty should deal a good amount of damage as it was the greatest cause of casualties in both world wars. I haven't played enough to know, but how are heavy arty in dealing actual damage? The 75s only reduce efficiency so that should balance out the guns I am thinking, and also have to consider a greater number of 75s due to lower support need. To damage or reduce efficiency - that is the question.

[Andy2012]

In Gallipoli, military history experts have said that heavy artillery had the potential to turn the tide had they not evacuated. Light artillery didn't churn up the Turkish trenches like heavy arty did, and there was a bad shortage of good artillery for the allies there, especially after the ships left. In the battles when heavy arty was applied, Turkish losses were much greater from their trenches being plowed up so experts say a breakthrough could have happened with more heavy artillery deployed. In France, the 75s were more effective but mainly during battle in a direct fire role.

In the game, the heavy arty should deal a good amount of damage as it was the greatest cause of casualties in both world wars. I haven't played enough to know, but how are heavy arty in dealing actual damage? The 75s only reduce efficiency so that should balance out the guns I am thinking, and also have to consider a greater number of 75s due to lower support need. To damage or reduce efficiency - that is the question.

Efficiency is key in OoB. A full strength tank on red efficiency is useless. The small arty is probably also useful when defending against a mass infantry assault. Each charging regiment gets a knock with your nimble arty, easy defense and fighting retreat. Heavy arty cant hit all (two few numbers) and cant shoot and scoot. Haven't tried it, though.

[kondi754]

I always wonder why everyone buys the heaviest artillery, which is not profitable/economic for reasons you are specified here.
I usually invest in medium and light artillery, if I buy heavy artillery it's only self-propelled.

[Andy2012]

I always wonder why everyone buys the heaviest artillery, which is not profitable/economic for reasons you are specified here.
I usually invest in medium and light artillery, if I buy heavy artillery it's only self-propelled.

Well, with heavy arty, you can hit the enemy before he can hit you. Those light arty pieces need to get in close and personal and thus are vulnerable to counterbattery fire. The way OoB works right now, exposed arty and AA is the most vulnerable unit to counterartillery fire and tacbombers. Heavy arty like the FK18 (that one with the superlong range, 8 hexes, I think) can stay behind and not get hit (ideally, not spotted). Also good for picking off support units in protracted sieges, which are just out of range for light arty.
Thinking about it, I would prefer heavy tanks like the Tiger, Tiger II, Jagdtiger, Elefant and so on to have a range of two. So when they attack a soviet T-34 out of his gun range, they can't hit back. Would be realistic and add a nuance to tank warfare. I mean, soviet tank tactics back then were mostly "let's bumrush them with dizzying numbers of ill-trained troops", while the tankhunters of the Wehrmacht kept their distance and picked them off at range. What does everyone else think? Would be a new mechanic for the next Russia DLC.

[kondi754]

I always wonder why everyone buys the heaviest artillery, which is not profitable/economic for reasons you are specified here.
I usually invest in medium and light artillery, if I buy heavy artillery it's only self-propelled.

Well, with heavy arty, you can hit the enemy before he can hit you. Those light arty pieces need to get in close and personal and thus are vulnerable to counterbattery fire. The way OoB works right now, exposed arty and AA is the most vulnerable unit to counterartillery fire and tacbombers. Heavy arty like the FK18 (that one with the superlong range, 8 hexes, I think) can stay behind and not get hit (ideally, not spotted). Also good for picking off support units in protracted sieges, which are just out of range for light arty.
Thinking about it, I would prefer heavy tanks like the Tiger, Tiger II, Jagdtiger, Elefant and so on to have a range of two. So when they attack a soviet T-34 out of his gun range, they can't hit back. Would be realistic and add a nuance to tank warfare. I mean, soviet tank tactics back then were mostly "let's bumrush them with dizzying numbers of ill-trained troops", while the tankhunters of the Wehrmacht kept their distance and picked them off at range. What does everyone else think? Would be a new mechanic for the next Russia DLC.

I remember in Panzer General 3D there was used such a solution.
Tiger tank could shoot effectively to the enemy from a distance of 2 hexes.
I think that such a solution would improve the game.

[Andy2012]

I remember in Panzer General 3D there was used such a solution.
Tiger tank could shoot effectively to the enemy from a distance of 2 hexes.
I think that such a solution would improve the game.

Yep, that's why I had in mind, too. Have that Panzer General 3D still on my hard-drive. (It is quite funny how the voice acting made the German campaigns so unique and fun. When attacking, you get briefed by cocky dude with a heavy Berlin accent. When defending the fatherland, a weary, tired commander shows you the ropes. Still amazing. OoB could learn a thing or two here.)
But I guess it would involve some testing to see how that would work in gameplay.
On the one hand, it would enable shoot-and-scoot tactics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot-and-scoot), on the other hand, might be too powerful, especially in multiplayer.
Another addition I would prefer or thought about was "Panzerkeil" (tank wedge) - multiple tanks supporting each other when attacking. Sure, right now there is a flanking bonus and you have Guderian as a commander. But Panzerkeil could add a bonus to massed tank assault when they neighbor each other on hexes. But i guess that is way more experimental than two range attack.

[bru888]

This artillery unit, for which I have more respect now thanks to this discussion, should have "Scoot and shoot" indicated as a unit trait. I say "scoot and shoot" as opposed to "shoot and scoot" because that is what it can do: move and fire. It cannot fire and move.

To me, this is an important unit trait for artillery, yet it does not appear in the Unit Traits window:

Screenshot 2.jpg (57.39 KiB) Viewed 4428 times

Here is the gun that you receive in Mlawa if you kill a bunker in time. It is capable of more damage and has 2/3 more range but the shock value is the same and it's 1/2 slower. Plus it cannot move and fire:

Screenshot 3.jpg (56.29 KiB) Viewed 4428 times

Andy suggested doing a test of this small artillery versus bigger models. The idea is to see how a pack of the small artillery would do against an equivalent amount of big guns versus an equal group of foes. An important consideration is cost; the 7.5 cm leIG costs 50 and the 10.5 cm leFH costs 110. Purchasing 11 of the small gun and 5 of the big gun would be equivalent: 550.

I say that because I am thinking about getting back into scenario design, and this would be a good test for me. So, perhaps this Presidents' Day weekend, during which we in the U.S. celebrate most of our presidents, I will come up with something and post it here.

[Andy2012]

Andy suggested doing a test of this small artillery versus bigger models. The idea is to see how a pack of the small artillery would do against an equivalent amount of big guns versus an equal group of foes. An important consideration is cost; the 7.5 cm leIG costs 50 and the 10.5 cm leFH costs 110. Purchasing 11 of the small gun and 5 of the big gun would be equivalent: 550.

I say that because I am thinking about getting back into scenario design, and this would be a good test for me. So, perhaps this Presidents' Day weekend, during which we in the U.S. celebrate most of our presidents, I will come up with something and post it here.

Well, tell us about the results. Would also be pretty important for the devs, I guess.

"I have the best guns. Yuge, yuge guns. They do tremendous damage. Everybody else's guns are bad. Bad guns. Sad, failing guns. Mine work like a fine-tuned machine, you should see it. Yuge results, biggest turnout, best victory."
(I'll stop now. Laugh in the face of adversity.)

[bru888]

Well, tell us about the results. Would also be pretty important for the devs, I guess.

I mean to post the scenario itself for you to try, as well as test it and report on it. I will use a link to my web site.

"I have the best guns. Yuge, yuge guns. They do tremendous damage. Everybody else's guns are bad. Bad guns. Sad, failing guns. Mine work like a fine-tuned machine, you should see it. Yuge results, biggest turnout, best victory."
(I'll stop now. Laugh in the face of adversity.)

LOL! Well done! Yes, we had better stop now before this thread gets locked down, too.

[GiveWarAchance]

In the comparison of guns in the pictures above, how can you tell the supply need for each gun? Someone mentioned the 75 needs much less supply than other guns.

I always wonder why everyone buys the heaviest artillery, which is not profitable/economic for reasons you are specified here.
I usually invest in medium and light artillery, if I buy heavy artillery it's only self-propelled.

Well, with heavy arty, you can hit the enemy before he can hit you. Those light arty pieces need to get in close and personal and thus are vulnerable to counterbattery fire. The way OoB works right now, exposed arty and AA is the most vulnerable unit to counterartillery fire and tacbombers. Heavy arty like the FK18 (that one with the superlong range, 8 hexes, I think) can stay behind and not get hit (ideally, not spotted). Also good for picking off support units in protracted sieges, which are just out of range for light arty.
Thinking about it, I would prefer heavy tanks like the Tiger, Tiger II, Jagdtiger, Elefant and so on to have a range of two. So when they attack a soviet T-34 out of his gun range, they can't hit back. Would be realistic and add a nuance to tank warfare. I mean, soviet tank tactics back then were mostly "let's bumrush them with dizzying numbers of ill-trained troops", while the tankhunters of the Wehrmacht kept their distance and picked them off at range. What does everyone else think? Would be a new mechanic for the next Russia DLC.

Very good ideas from Andy. Counterbattery is a big consideration when choosing guns. German optics were far superior so when they starting using the deadly 88 on the Tiger and upgraded that on Nashorn and later vehicles, they could pick off Soviet tanks with impunity from 1500 meters or maybe farther... until the swarm came at them. So in game, that added point of range might be good for Germans. Panzerkeil idea is good too cause Germans needs to mass tanks in a wedge to quickly overwhelm nasty Russian defenses thick with AT guns. If there is balance problem with the new ideas, maybe the cost of German armor could be moved up a bit.

[Andy2012]

Very good ideas from Andy. Counterbattery is a big consideration when choosing guns. German optics were far superior so when they starting using the deadly 88 on the Tiger and upgraded that on Nashorn and later vehicles, they could pick off Soviet tanks with impunity from 1500 meters or maybe farther... until the swarm came at them. So in game, that added point of range might be good for Germans. Panzerkeil idea is good too cause Germans needs to mass tanks in a wedge to quickly overwhelm nasty Russian defenses thick with AT guns. If there is balance problem with the new ideas, maybe the cost of German armor could be moved up a bit.

Panzerkeil could be a specialisation: As long as three tanks (at least Panzer III) are on neighbouring hexes, they get an attack bonus and efficiency reduction bonus. Kind of a shock troop effect.
But those ideas are months away. Kriegsmarine is up next.

[Andy2012]

LOL! Well done! Yes, we had better stop now before this thread gets locked down, too.

I think we could pick on the mad mango forever around here and nobody would mind that much.
But let's just have fun with this game.

[bru888]

In the comparison of guns in the pictures above, how can you tell the supply need for each gun? Someone mentioned the 75 needs much less supply than other guns.

By default, you can press the space bar during the game to show supply needs (but you mentioned someplace else that you reassigned space bar to "next unit"). Here, the big gun at the top needs 4 supply (three plus truck); the small gun in the middle needs 3 supply (two plus truck); and the one at the bottom needs only 2 supply (no truck):

Screenshot 3.jpg (69.99 KiB) Viewed 4408 times

The other way to look at supply needs is on the purchase screen (without truck, of course; truck adds +1):

Screenshot 1.jpg (43.52 KiB) Viewed 4408 times

Which introduces another variable: supply. How am I going to test for all of these factors?