petedalby wrote:I've followed this one with interest.
The OP was an unusual situation which will only happen very occasionally. I'm not sure I know what the right answer is - in a game you just try and do what seems fair and reasonable. And if you can't agree, roll a dice or call an umpire.
But in 99% of flank charges, the contacted base will turn 90 degrees to face the charger. In 99% of rear charges, a contacted base will turn 180 degrees to face the charger.
Pete i totally agree with you on this, but there are to many players out there that think they are always correct and can only read what benfits them.
Why keep arguing that it says this on one page but a diagram says something different, Just get a clerification of one of the authors and get on with it.
Yes, and there is room to turn 90 in the OP. The angle has to get fairly severe before the charging BG interferes with the turn. Something around 45 or more on the rear corner.
I don't understand this comment I would have thought any angle past perpendicular i.e. any contact with a rear corner would theoretically stop anyone turning 90 unless they were 40mm deep bases , if you assume that the charger is immovable and you only attempt to turn when contacted. I think most of us tend to turn them 90 without thinking about this.
I think the thought is turn 90 and shuffle backwards in one movement would perhaps make the room Paul, which is not unreasonable I think.
I'll make this my last post on this, as we're droning on a bit. Here's a little teaser for those who read "bases contacted on a side or rear edge rear edge or rear corner, by an enemy flank or rear charge are immediately turned 90 or 180 degrees to face the chargers." as meaning "if it's a flank charge, turn 90. If it's a rear charge, turn 180". let's assume we're playing a game where it's agreed that that is the interpretation.
Let's say we have two BGs of knights facing up the page:
sAAAAs
BBBBBB
s - space
A - enemy BG
B - my BG
My battlegroup is directly behind the enemy, by a distance of say about 2MU, and is parallel. As it happens, I'm wider than the enemy. let's say my four centrel bases are 'looking' at the enemy but my bases at either end are looking at the spaces.
I declare a charge. My options would seem to be:
a) charge straight. It's a rear charge, the enemy turn 180, nice and simple.
b) wheel to the right a bit then go straight forwards. It's a flank charge, because I've hit the corner. So that enemy base turns 90 to the left of screen and shuffles back. I move forward to maintain contact. I then step forward, and I will contact the rest of the enemy bases. It's a flank charge, so they also turn 90 and face left, and shuffle up. When I conform, my bases will move to conform to the (new) enemy front edge, so my BG will end up facing to the right:
BAAAA
B
B
B
B
B
c) Wheel to the left a bit and charge. It's a mirror image of b), so the enemy end up in a column facing right and I'm facing right.
It seems to me that in this position i'm getting a doubly cheesy advantage. I get to choose one of three radically different positions by charging in slightly different ways. So I might easily avoid enemy countermoves. And, in the quite likely circumstance that the enemy break in melee, I get to choose which way I pursue.
It seems to open up some very smelly cheese to me. Whereas "turn 90 OR 180 to face the enemy bases that have just hit you" means I'll conform, essentially be facing up the page and pursuing straight up the page whatever I do, which seems much more realistic.
Graham, agree with your last post. But that is the way the rule is written. And, I think you'll have to agree, that situation will be a rarity compared to the flank charge situations that normally come up. There are other anomalies in the rules. Perhaps the authors should have said it is a rear charge if over half the BG starts in a position directly to the enemy rear?????
paullongmore wrote:
Yes, and there is room to turn 90 in the OP. The angle has to get fairly severe before the charging BG interferes with the turn. Something around 45 or more on the rear corner.
I don't understand this comment I would have thought any angle past perpendicular i.e. any contact with a rear corner would theoretically stop anyone turning 90 unless they were 40mm deep bases , if you assume that the charger is immovable and you only attempt to turn when contacted. I think most of us tend to turn them 90 without thinking about this.
When a base is not 40x40 and turns 90 it moves away from the flank rear corner closer to the rest of the unit. Which is why the rules say for the flank charging BG to move forward to maintain contact even if normal move distance is exceeded.
BTW, pulled out the trig table. The angle is exactly 45 degrees. Tangent of 45 is 1. So if you hit the flank at an angle or 45 or less there is room to turn the defending base.
bbotus wrote:Graham, agree with your last post. But that is the way the rule is written. And, I think you'll have to agree, that situation will be a rarity compared to the flank charge situations that normally come up. There are other anomalies in the rules. Perhaps the authors should have said it is a rear charge if over half the BG starts in a position directly to the enemy rear?????
paullongmore wrote:
Yes, and there is room to turn 90 in the OP. The angle has to get fairly severe before the charging BG interferes with the turn. Something around 45 or more on the rear corner.
I don't understand this comment I would have thought any angle past perpendicular i.e. any contact with a rear corner would theoretically stop anyone turning 90 unless they were 40mm deep bases , if you assume that the charger is immovable and you only attempt to turn when contacted. I think most of us tend to turn them 90 without thinking about this.
When a base is not 40x40 and turns 90 it moves away from the flank rear corner closer to the rest of the unit. Which is why the rules say for the flank charging BG to move forward to maintain contact even if normal move distance is exceeded.
BTW, pulled out the trig table. The angle is exactly 45 degrees. Tangent of 45 is 1. So if you hit the flank at an angle or 45 or less there is room to turn the defending base.
You are 100% wrong. Can you please quote where it states in the rules that you turn 90 degrees when charged in the flank and 180 degrees when charged in the rear.
If the rule as written says the bases contacted by a flank or rear charge must turn 90 or 180 degrees, then who decides which applies in a given situation? I would assume its the owner of the target of the charge.
batesmotel wrote:If the rule as written says the bases contacted by a flank or rear charge must turn 90 or 180 degrees, then who decides which applies in a given situation? I would assume its the owner of the target of the charge.
Chris
That would seem in keeping with other parts of the rules. But if the base is unable to turn in one direction and it must turn to face the attacker then it must turn the other way.
You are 100% wrong. Can you please quote where it states in the rules that you turn 90 degrees when charged in the flank and 180 degrees when charged in the rear.
Don't let it get you down - take comfort from the fact that the wording is open to interpretation and most of the time your reading of the rules is correct.
batesmotel wrote:If the rule as written says the bases contacted by a flank or rear charge must turn 90 or 180 degrees, then who decides which applies in a given situation? I would assume its the owner of the target of the charge.
Chris
That would seem in keeping with other parts of the rules. But if the base is unable to turn in one direction and it must turn to face the attacker then it must turn the other way.
batesmotel wrote:If the rule as written says the bases contacted by a flank or rear charge must turn 90 or 180 degrees, then who decides which applies in a given situation? I would assume its the owner of the target of the charge.
Chris
That would seem in keeping with other parts of the rules. But if the base is unable to turn in one direction and it must turn to face the attacker then it must turn the other way.
Where does it say that in the rules?
The bit where it states a base contacted in the flank or rear _must_ turn to face the charger.
It says a base must turn. It doesn't say that if you can't turn 90 then you turn 180; you are reading something into the rules which is not there.
The example on page 175 shows a base *not* turning to face. So evidently you don't always have to turn a base.
Further question; what happens if a base can't turn either 90 or 180 degrees?
The rules say it _must_ turn. Does your head explode or something?
pyruse wrote:It says a base must turn. It doesn't say that if you can't turn 90 then you turn 180; you are reading something into the rules which is not there.
The example on page 175 shows a base *not* turning to face. So evidently you don't always have to turn a base.
Further question; what happens if a base can't turn either 90 or 180 degrees?
The rules say it _must_ turn. Does your head explode or something?
Since it is always possible to turn 180 degrees this situation will never occur.
The rules state a base _must_ turn. This takes precedence over diagrams (as previously stated by the authors).
pyruse wrote:Further question; what happens if a base can't turn either 90 or 180 degrees?
The rules say it _must_ turn. Does your head explode or something?
Given that it's a question about turning, perhaps your head starts spinning around?
Wouldn't it be nice to have an author sorting this out? Unfortunately, they are no longer regularly in the FOGAM forum. I suppose at least the BG receiving the charge is in a lot of trouble no matter how it's ruled, but the implication for rout direction is a worry. And the fact that people on here have two different takes on the rules suggests there'll maybe be a problem in a game one day.
batesmotel wrote:If the rule as written says the bases contacted by a flank or rear charge must turn 90 or 180 degrees, then who decides which applies in a given situation? I would assume its the owner of the target of the charge.
Chris
That would seem in keeping with other parts of the rules. But if the base is unable to turn in one direction and it must turn to face the attacker then it must turn the other way.
When does the base turn? Is it when initially contacted or after the step forward has occurred. If the former then it can turn 90.
batesmotel wrote:If the rule as written says the bases contacted by a flank or rear charge must turn 90 or 180 degrees, then who decides which applies in a given situation? I would assume its the owner of the target of the charge.
Chris
That would seem in keeping with other parts of the rules. But if the base is unable to turn in one direction and it must turn to face the attacker then it must turn the other way.
When does the base turn? Is it when initially contacted or after the step forward has occurred. If the former then it can turn 90.
Page 59 gives the general rule for charging and stepping forward. A flank charge is a subset of charges and has specific rules not followed in normal frontal charges. Page 61 specifically says that bases contacted by a flank/rear charge are "IMMEDIATELY" (my emphasis just for Dave) turned 90 or 180..... It goes on to say that the charging BG is then moved forward to maintain contact even if it exceeds its normal move distance. The sequence is very clear: 1. Contact, 2. Turn, 3. Step Forward.
Dave, if the sequence is: contact, step forward, turn; then please explain what 'immediately' means on page 61.
Here is a dictionary definition of 'immediately':
adverb
1. at once; instantly.
synonyms: straightaway, at once, right away, instantly, now, directly, promptly, forthwith, this/that (very) minute, this/that instant, there and then, then and there, on the spot, here and now, without delay, without further ado, posthaste;
I very much doubt that the authors have another definition for the word.
