LORDS OF HISTORY, 4th edition

[ricoual74]

gergovia
Romans (ricoual) 42/57 beat Arvernii (jonathan) 64/62

Thanks for the game.

[ricoual74]

for round 2
iandavidsmith: cynoscephale pw: Ianda
londo: lake trasimene pw: londo
fogman: magnesia pw : fogman

[fogman]

you know what, since people have started round 2 games all over, we may as well abolish the rounds for this one. So basically, you can make your challenges for round 2 as well and play everything together. I'll just have to just post round 1 schedule next time to avoid this in the future.

[fogman]

cynoscephalae
macedonians (fogman) 31/81 vs romans (jonathan) 76/76

the roman elephant spearhead failed in preventing the macedonians from establishing a strong line on the ridge that was able to beat back the roman right's assault. the other roman wing over-committed early and suffered heavily.

[Londo]

Cannae

Londo (Carthaginians) 83/120 beat Jonathan (Romans) 122/120

I think the scenario needs a little tinkering. On the Carth left flank, the Roman cav avoided contact, and so the Carth cav rode towards the entry point behind the Roman inf line. On the other flank, the Numidians just ignored the Roman cav, which did not manage to block them, and 3 or 4 Numidians got to the entry behind the Roman line.

But none of that mattered, because the game ended before even one cavalry unit saw action! (Apart from Hannibal's and Mago's bodyguards in the centre, which charged a couple of times).

I would suggest that Cannae must have, or at least have the possibility of, a double envelopment. That was the concept that 20th century Germans took from it, and tried to replicate in various battles, such as Tannenburg 1914 and Kiev 1941. But as it stands here, the infantry fight is all that matters, and the cav, of both sides, might as well not have been placed on the map.

So I would suggest placing both sides' cavalry wings closer to each other AND closer to the entry gap behind the Roman line. That would give Carth a chance to defeat either or both Roman cav wings, and then attack some Roman inf before the game ends. (It would make things even more difficult for the Romans, in what is already a very nasty situation, so maybe Roman BPs could be increased or Carth BPs lowered.)

[Londo]

Magnesia

Londo (Seleucids) 35/82 beat ricoual (Romans) 74/74

In one amusing incident, a steady poor Seleucid cavalry unit was routed in battle against ... a Seleucid objective marker! The cavalry hit the marker (a poor mob) from behind, failed to disrupt it, then lost the ensuing battle and routed the next turn.

[fogman]

Cannae

Londo (Carthaginians) 83/120 beat Jonathan (Romans) 122/120

I think the scenario needs a little tinkering. On the Carth left flank, the Roman cav avoided contact, and so the Carth cav rode towards the entry point behind the Roman inf line. On the other flank, the Numidians just ignored the Roman cav, which did not manage to block them, and 3 or 4 Numidians got to the entry behind the Roman line.

But none of that mattered, because the game ended before even one cavalry unit saw action! (Apart from Hannibal's and Mago's bodyguards in the centre, which charged a couple of times).

Historically, the carthaginian left wing cavalry dispersed the opposing roman cavalry and rode all the way to the other wing, never turning inside towards the infantry battle. Once there the socii cavalry, which were observing, rather than engaging, the numidians (the reason both started as reinforcements so they don't swing into action right away), in turn retreated, leaving the carthaginian cavalry free hand. So the game behaviour isn't out of the ordinary. Whether the carthaginian cavalry comes into action depends on how the infantry fight unfolds and what the roman player does with his cavalry. In my game, the carthaginian cavalry engaged both roman cavalry and infantry, and could have turned the tide had the game not ended on the roman turn.

I would suggest that Cannae must have, or at least have the possibility of, a double envelopment. That was the concept that 20th century Germans took from it, and tried to replicate in various battles, such as Tannenburg 1914 and Kiev 1941. But as it stands here, the infantry fight is all that matters, and the cav, of both sides, might as well not have been placed on the map..

Cannae was overwhelmingly a infantry fight. There is no clear evidence that the carthaginian cavalry was the decisive element. My feeling is that they added to the slaughter rather than tipped the balance of the battle by cutting off the roman retreat path. This doesn't mean the cavalry is purposeless; 1. they are there for historical accuracy. 2. in a close game any losses incurred there can sink a player. 3. the infantry fight can last longer than one may think, depending on how aggressive the carthaginian player is with his centre and how well the romans manage to delay the march of the carthaginian infantry wings.

So I would suggest placing both sides' cavalry wings closer to each other AND closer to the entry gap behind the Roman line. That would give Carth a chance to defeat either or both Roman cav wings, and then attack some Roman inf before the game ends. (It would make things even more difficult for the Romans, in what is already a very nasty situation, so maybe Roman BPs could be increased or Carth BPs lowered.)

based on what i wrote above, i am not fixated with giving the carthaginian cavalry a bigger role than it is now, which i believe is congruent with historical accounts. And part of the roman player's goal is to defeat the carthaginian infantry before the carthaginian cavalry can intervene, and that is hardly impossible.

[fogman]

Cannae

romans (fogman) 117/120 vs carthaginians (batesmotel) 121/120

it was something like 107/120 for carthaginians and 117/120 for romans (with 2 F, and a D poor roman cavalry surrounded by 3 enemy) at the start of the roman turn. so it should have been a tie, which statistically speaking, it is.

the key to the romans was to avoid the powerful carthaginian infantry wings as long as possible, hence the inward push as the roman infantry wings collapse towards their centre. Heroic actions by triarii with their armour and sword-busting spears were instrumental in delaying the crush. As at the Trebbia the romans were able to pierce the carthaginian centre which i thought was overcommitted instead of pulling out towards the hill. Had they gained a few more turns, the carthaginian cavalry, which had already joined the fight, would have had more impact.

the battle was a carthaginian victory in historical term since it can be seen that if the game wasn't artificially ended (when roman losses were running at 32000, twice their enemy's), the carthaginian would gain the upper hand in the longer run. but this is the essence of events-based design, not to significantly alter the historical flow but at the same time allow for the historical loser to win in game terms.

[fogman]

Magnesia

Londo (Seleucids) 35/82 beat ricoual (Romans) 74/74

In one amusing incident, a steady poor Seleucid cavalry unit was routed in battle against ... a Seleucid objective marker! The cavalry hit the marker (a poor mob) from behind, failed to disrupt it, then lost the ensuing battle and routed the next turn.

you probably meant 'failed to fragment it' since you hit it from behind. this must be in the exit zone.

did the seleucid pike block stand and fight or retreat to their camp?

[bloodphoenix]

I'm 'crowdsourcing' ulysisgrunt's 5 games of the first round.

depending on how many are interested, each can play 1 or 2 games, or all 5 if there's only one. easy way to try something new.

Fogman, did anything further ever happen with that? As scheduled in Pool 2 Round 1, I posted a challenge to Ulysisgrunt for Lake Trasimene, but its never been picked up. I note that I'm due to receive a game from him in Round 2 as well.

Apparently, it is possible for a player to have one username that displays in games, and another on the Forums?
Because I'm getting the impression that "Stefano1967" in the Forums is the same player as "mcwar"? Stefano was scheduled to send me a challenge for Cannae, and I watched for it under that poster name for several days. Finally, I noticed that there was one from "mcwar" and tried the password Stefano had given me, and it worked... A bit confusing!

[fogman]

danny (ulisysgrunt) is supposed to be back from vacation today. he'll show up shortly.
yes, stefano and mcwar are the same person.

[Brindlebane]

3 challenges up,one to be posted

Ulysisgrunt-Cannae-PW=cruise
Ulysisgrunt-Cyno-PW=cruise
Mike Marchant-Magnesia-PW=Mike

See you guys on the field of battle

[fogman]

guys, i have been getting unreliable signals and it's not getting fixed until a week from now. the internet gets cut off regularly for 10 minutes or 3 hours, and i can't risk that happening when i'm playing a turn because then i'll have to reboot and replay the turn, which is not fair.

[ulysisgrunt]

In the immortal words of a former American President I am "Ready, Rested, and Tan"

I am doing my round two challenges for pool two
Danny Weitz

[iandavidsmith]

Lake Trasimene

Iandavidsmith (Carthaginian) 56/75 win
vrs
Jonthan (Roman) 82/75 loss

The Romans got off to a early lead but once the multiple
Barbarians surrounded the Legionaries they took their toll.

Rough Terrain help the cause for the Carthaginians

Great Game ,
Ian

[MikeMarchant]

Pool 2

MikeMarchant's Macedonians (63/81) beat bloodphoenix's Romans (78/76) at Cynoscephalae

Another brutal slaughter on the slopes, with the raw naked aggression of the Macedonians, on both flanks, paying off. The Romans were beginning to come back, beginning to make ground, but it was too late by then end to make up the difference and turn the battle.

Bad luck, bloodphoenix, and thanks for the game.


Best Wishes

Mike

[ulysisgrunt]

I'm still suffering "time zone shock"...
Who am I?
I mean, who am I supposed to post challenges for?

Cheers
Danny Weitz
12 meters below sea level in La Quinta California!

[MikeMarchant]

Pool 2

MikeMarchant's Seleucids (69/82) beat Ulysisgrunt's Romans (75/74) at the battle of Magnesia

No real idea of what happened in this battle except that two masses engaged on all sides, there was a great big punch up (a bit like any English high street on a Saturday night) and somehow my guys managed to prevail.

Bad luck, Danny, and thanks for the game.


Best Wishes

Mike

[fogman]

I'm still suffering "time zone shock"...
Who am I?
I mean, who am I supposed to post challenges for?

Cheers
Danny Weitz
12 meters below sea level in La Quinta California!

You have 5 challenges:

Round 1
Gergovia vs JocaRamiro
Cynoscephalae vs Stefano

Round 2
Cannae vs JocaRamiro
Lake Trasimene vs MikeMarchant
Magnesia vs BloodPhoenix

You can challenge for both rounds at the same time because some people have already played round 2 games.
Remember, you're side 1 when you challenge.

[ulysisgrunt]

The following challenges are now up:

For JocaRamiro: Gergovia and Cannae (in each case PW is JocaRamiro)
For Stefano: Cynocaphalae PW: Stefano
For MikeMarchant: Lake Trasimene PW:MikeMarchant
For BloodPhoenix: Magnesia PW:BloodPhoenix