RC11 AAR

[Cybvep]

It's better than nothing. However, I'm surprised that after all those changes since 2.0 that make the life harder for the Axis in 1939-1942 (anti-armour blob, stronger DDs against subs, harsher rail rules etc.), you are reluctant to introduce a minor change that would make things a bit easier for them.

IMO enemy land units should occupy hexes they control even after surrender, but air units should be transferred to the force pool. If you want to control a city, then send a GAR unit or an INF corps. Simple and effective.

Scandinavian Blitz already incurs risks on its own and conquering Norway after French surrender shouldn't be hard, anyway.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I have never had problems taking Norway with my Germans even if the Allies contest my invasion. So I don't see a real problem here.

I think you only mention some of the changes we made. The changes benefitting the Axis weren't mentioned. One is that subs do a lot more damage to convoys with higher tech. You can inflict a bit over 20 pp of damage with just one hit. Russian at start tech is lower, especially for armor. They have 0-0-1 now instead of 1-1-1 as before.

What matters is the game balance NOW, not what we have changed to get here. Again I want to repeat that we should test and see how things go using the latest version we have. If you find by testing that something is not right then we deal with it then and not before we actually have an issue.

[Cybvep]

It's not a major balance issue, but it seems gamey and is quite irritating nonetheless.

[rkr1958]

IMO enemy land units should occupy hexes they control even after surrender, but air units should be transferred to the force pool. If you want to control a city, then send a GAR unit or an INF corps. Simple and effective.

The problem with this solution is in the case where the Brits do want to make a stand in Norway, for example, and have both ground and air units deployed there. Then suddenly on the surrender of Norway the air units go away leaving the ground troops to themselves.

[Cybvep]

Then leave the air units in place if they are not occupying a city/resource/town/whatever? You can always evacuate them manually, but you wouldn't be able to control important hexes with them.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I've coded a possible fix that Ronnie and Paul will test today. If it works we can have it available for RC14. I think the fix will address all conditions.

The rule is simple. An air unit occupying a city or resource hex in a country that has surrendered will lose control of that hex to the owner of the conquered country's capital owner unless a friendly ground unit is adjacent or the supply level in the hex is 4 or 5.

This will deal with the situations in France and Norway where UK air units occupy the port cities. Now you need to remain there to keep control.

The rules about ground unit adjacent and supply level above 4 are made to ensure that Allied air units in France (after Overlord) or Italy (after Husky) will not risk losing control of the hex by rebasing an air unit. If you have ground units adjacent then the ground unit will exert ZOC into the hex and keep control when the air unit rebases. Supply level 4 or 5 means the air unit has direct link to a major power capital and then it won't lose control when rebasing.

This change would mean the Allies will have to land ground units in Norway to keep control of Bergen / Trondheim or risk keeping their air units there. Then the Luftwaffe can engage these air units while the German corps units move towards the cities. At least it becomes so risky for the Allies they will flee before being destroyed.

The same about Allied air units in Brest, Bordeaux etc. You can stay there until the German units get close enough to capture the city. Then you better rebase or be attacked. When you rebase you lose control of the city. So the Germans only need to threaten to take the city, e. g. by railing a unit to Rennes to make the UK air units flee.

Do you think such a simple rule will work? It won't affect game balance so I think it can be easily added.

[rkr1958]

I've coded a possible fix that Ronnie and Paul will test today. If it work we can have it available for RC14. I think the fix will address all conditions.

The rule is simple. An air unit occupying a city or resource hex in a country that has surrendered will lose control of that hex to the owner of the conquered country's capital unless a friendly ground unit is adjacent or the supply level in the hex is 4 or 5.

This will deal with the situations in France and Norway where UK air units occupy the port cities. Now you need to remain there to keep control.

The rules about ground unit adjacent and supply level above 4 are made to ensure that Allied air units in France (after Overlord) or Italy (after Husky) will risk losing control of the hex by rebasing an air unit. If you have ground units adjacent then the ground unit will exert ZOC into the hex and keep control when the air unit rebases. Supply level 4 or 5 means the air unit has direct link to a major power capital and then it won't lose control when rebasing.

This change would mean the Allies will have to land ground units in Norway to keep control of Bergen / Trondheim or risk keeping their air units there. Then the Luftwaffe can engage these air units while the German corps units move towards the cities. At least it becomes so risky for the Allies they will flee before being destroyed.

The same about Allied air units in Brest, Bordeaux etc. You can stay there until the German units get close enough to capture the city. Then you better rebase or be attacked. When you rebase you lose control of the city. So the Germans only need to threaten to take the city, e. g. by railing a unit to Rennes to make the UK air units flee.

Do you think such a simple rule will work? It won't affect game balance so I think it can be easily added.

Borger, great job! I really like this. Update has been made and uploaded.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Thanks. I really like it myself too.

First, we don't have to send the air units to the force pool. That means you can't exploit a quick trip home by being sent to the force pool.

Second, we don't need to store info in the hex about air units leaving. That would have invalidated save games and we hate to do that.

Third, we allow for air units to keep control as long as they're in the area.

Fourth, we let adjacent ground units affect the ownership of the air unit hex so if you also support the country with ground units you keep control.

The outcome is that the Allied player will stop sending air units to France and Norway just to annoy the Axis. They need to send ground units too as well. This is exactly what we want.

It's a pity we didn't make the change a little earlier because I had to send corps units towards empty Bergen and Trondheim in my Axis games against both you and Duncan. Those corps units could have been in Germany for the attack on France. At least I don't have to be bothered with this in the future. Against Pionurpo I had to send 2 corps units against Trondheim because he landed a garrison there. This unit is now killed so the corps units can move towards Bergen. This is fair because he sent 2 UK ground units to support Norway. So my axis units will have to fight to capture the cities.

[Schnurri]

Good job! This resolves one of the remaining gamey issues and makes a better game.

[Kragdob]

What if e.g. on Sardinia you put air unit in the town you already captured and then leave?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

What if e.g. on Sardinia you put air unit in the town you already captured and then leave?

If Italy hasn't surrendered then nothing will happen. If Italy has surrendered then nothing will happen if a friendly ground unit is adjacent to the air unit. Otherwise the owner will change to the owner of Rome. The same regarding Sicily.

[rkr1958]

[BuddyGrant]

Good job! This resolves one of the remaining gamey issues and makes a better game.

Yes, looks like an inspired change - good stuff.

[rkr1958]

[rkr1958]

[rkr1958]

[Insano]

Is there any advantage for e.g. Germany not using all his focus points? I am under the impression that this is just a "free" bonus to research in 1 of the 3 areas. The other 2 areas are not penalized - meaning they research at the same speed as if there was no focus point. Use all focus points as soon as they are available, no?

[Kragdob]

What if e.g. on Sardinia you put air unit in the town you already captured and then leave?

If Italy hasn't surrendered then nothing will happen. If Italy has surrendered then nothing will happen if a friendly ground unit is adjacent to the air unit. Otherwise the owner will change to the owner of Rome. The same regarding Sicily.

So if I make Italy surrender by e.g. taking all Sicily then move my air unit to Messina and then rebase it having no ground units on adjacent hex (Rome is still Axis) then I loose Messina?

If this is so I prefer gamey then having to remember all the time to keep ground unit next to cities I conquer in Italy, France and wherever else I may be making amphibious operations.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Is there any advantage for e.g. Germany not using all his focus points? I am under the impression that this is just a "free" bonus to research in 1 of the 3 areas. The other 2 areas are not penalized - meaning they research at the same speed as if there was no focus point. Use all focus points as soon as they are available, no?

When you have no focus then the research points are spread equally to each area, i. e. 33% to each area. When you put focus in one area then 50% goes to that area and only 25% to the other 2. So you penalize research in the other 2 areas if you put focus in one.

I put focus if there is one of the techs I really need. E. g. I put focus on submarine for the Germans from the start because I want high sub tech and not surface ship / ASW tech. For air units I keep balanced research until I get strategic operations tech 1 (+3 attack range). Then I put focus in dogfight. For armor and infantry I put focus in the tech lagging behind if it's important and I want it sooner. Sometimes I put focus in an important advance like the one giving +1 ground attack to corps units. So when I have got the +1 ground defense from fixed defenses I put focus on artillery to get +1 ground attack. Then I change to balanced or maybe focus on antitank. The same with armor. I might initally put focus on blitzkrieg to get +1 ground attack. Later I put focus on armor to get better survivability, but if my opponent has strong tanks I put focus on tank destroyers.

For general I put focus on industry as the Germans to get to tech 3 (to get 13 labs). Then I put focus on organization to get to tech 5 and then radar to boost my flak in cities.

So you put focus on areas where you want the tech it gives sooner. It's at the expense of getting techs from the other 2 areas slower.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

What if e.g. on Sardinia you put air unit in the town you already captured and then leave?

If Italy hasn't surrendered then nothing will happen. If Italy has surrendered then nothing will happen if a friendly ground unit is adjacent to the air unit. Otherwise the owner will change to the owner of Rome. The same regarding Sicily.

So if I make Italy surrender by e.g. taking all Sicily then move my air unit to Messina and then rebase it having no ground units on adjacent hex (Rome is still Axis) then I loose Messina?

If this is so I prefer gamey then having to remember all the time to keep ground unit next to cities I conquer in Italy, France and wherever else I may be making amphibious operations.

I usually don't base air units in cities because I want ground units to get entrenchment levels from being in a city. I try to put the air units in clear terrain to be able to repair the most number of steps when I have to.

I'm sure you could get a nasty surprise like mentioned above if you're not careful, but you only do it once until you learn to avoid having air units in cities in such situations. It's only when you're based on a surrendered country's territory you can face such a situation. That is in France with Overlord and Italy with Husky. Messina is an important city because you can ferry to the other side so I see no reason to put an air unit there when you have all of Sicily to base the air unit.