Historical AAR - Axis versus Allied AI (The AI Concedes)

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:40 pm

Turn 18. August 6, 1940. Britain Stands Alone But Defiant.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:45 pm

zechi wrote:
rkr1958 wrote: O.K. How about the following ground rule? Italian air and land units cannot more into or attack any units located inside of France until Paris is captured. Also, no Italian units allowed north of Vichy France (or something to that effect).
This seems like a good rule. Just one question. What would actually happen with Italian units, if the Italians activate before the Fall of France and would attack southern France as they historically did through the Alps and would take Nice or another city in southern France. If France falls and Vichy France is created would the Italian units in Nice or the territory of Vichy France be destroyed?

Will be really interesting to see how the "historical" invasion of Egypt and Greece plays out against the AI.

@zechi,

Thanks. Ok, here it is:

10. Italian units can only be deployed to and fight in Italy, North Africa, Greece, Yugoslavia, southern Russia and southern France (hex row 35 or greater). Italian air and land units cannot more into or attack any units located inside of France until Paris is captured.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:14 am

Turn 19. August 26, 1940 Axis. Heavy Bombing of England.

Egypt did not activate during the allied AI turn so no Italian invasion of Egypt just yet.

_Augustus_ · Post by **_Augustus_** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:28 am

Stauffenberg wrote:If you look at the latest screenshots from Ronnie you will see the strength colors used. We got rid of the annoying strong colors and instead did the following for showing efficiency:
0-19: Red (as before)
20-39: Orange (as before)
40-59: Yellow (as before)
60-79: Light green (new color)
80+: White (changed from 60+)

Looks better than the purples IMO. Albeit the green somewhat pops out still. Granted it might be just being used to the old colours and the scheme fits in well during actually playing the game.

Did you try how just using the old range with an addition orange worked? I'm just sincerely curious if it would work.

Red
Orange
Yellow Orange
Yellow
White

With some fudging the oranges ought to be distinguishable enough in the actual gameplay. Maybe

The coloured text on a white background shown above doesn't achieve that. But at least the Photoshop test of a screen capture looked ok and and the oranges looked distinguishable from each other and from the yellow.

Just throwing ideas around,

_augustus_

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:07 pm

Turn 20. September 15, 1940 Axis. Italy invades Egypt. The Germans continue their relentless bombing of England.

zechi · Post by **zechi** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:59 pm

The confrontation in Egypt looks interesting. The Italians at the frontline are outnumbered and of lower quality, so the Allied player should normally defeat your initial invasion force more or less easily, especially as the AI also has air and naval superiority in this area.

However, as its the AI which is playing, anything could happen

Should the AI defeat the initial Italian invasion force, it would be a very historical outcome. See Operation Compass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass

Only difference is, that in the the real war, the Brits were greatly outnumbered. Operation Compass was so succesful that the British occupied the wholy Cyreneika including Tobruk. Afterwards the German intervened and drove the allies back to Egpyt, but Tobruk was besieged by the Italian/Germans for a very long time. See Siege of Tobruk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tobruk

I think the AI could destroy your initial force, but it will struggel to get Tobruk. Nevertheless, will be very interesting to the outcome of the battle

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:09 am

Turn 21. October 5, 1940 Axis. The Italian invasion of Egypt turns quickly into a retreat.

The first three screen caps are from the my turn (during or the end) and the last three are from the end of the AI turn's (which is actually the beginning of my next turn). Because of mud and rain in Central Europe I decided not to bomb England but instead repair all air units back to full strength. Also, upgrades from 3 to 5 was possible for German fighters but I decided to wait until Close Air Support level 2 to upgrade. This saves 5 PP's by waiting.

Besides the Battle of Britain (i.e., allied AI turn), the Germans were quite but the Italians were very active in Egypt and in reading themselves for the invasion of Greece. Playing by the ground rules I established for this AAR creates a more historical Italian effort where they (i.e., Mussolini) go after their own glory without the blessing of Germany (i.e., Hitler). And, as happened in history, I suspect they'll get in trouble and will have to be bailed out by the Germans. Again, as was historical, this will divert resources and time away from the invasion of Russia.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:44 am

Turn 22. October 25, 1940 Axis. The Battle of Britain Rages On. Heavy Losses by the RAF. The British 8th Army Pursues the retreating Italian army in North Africa. Mussolini invades Greece!

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:18 am

Turn 23. November 14, 1940 Axis. Skies remain clear over Britain. The Luftwaffe continues their relentless air war against England.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:39 am

Turn 24. December 4, 1940 Axis.

Two separate UK convoys come under attack and it's time to start thinking about building up for the invasion of Russia.

zechi · Post by **zechi** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:02 pm

Your successes in Greece are a little bit unhistorical, the Greek should drive you back to Albania

Looks like you will not need the Germans in this theater. Perhaps the air force and the allowed naval landing were a little but too much support!

Did you destroy some of the British units in North Africa? Interesting to see that there is at least some action on this front if you lure the AI into a fight. Does the AI used the Egyptian FTR? At least it uses the RN, which is not a so bad move after all.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:31 pm

zechi wrote:Your successes in Greece are a little bit unhistorical, the Greek should drive you back to Albania Looks like you will not need the Germans in this theater. Perhaps the air force and the allowed naval landing were a little but too much support!

I think Athens might be a tough nut to crack. Even so, I hope to beat the historical conquest date but, if I do it won't be by that much.

zechi wrote:Did you destroy some of the British units in North Africa? Interesting to see that there is at least some action on this front if you lure the AI into a fight. Does the AI used the Egyptian FTR? At least it uses the RN, which is not a so bad move after all.

No British units destroyed. All I've see from the AI are two infantry and one mech corps plus a CV and BB. I think one of the flaws of the AI is that is keeps a number of units in reserve that it could use effectively on the attack or defense.

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:35 pm

I think what happened in Greece in even more "historical" than real history. Italian army was not the best indeed, but it was much larger and better equipped. than greek one, it was more like a wierd example of "bad roll" in real war.

zechi · Post by **zechi** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:37 am

Plaid wrote:I think what happened in Greece in even more "historical" than real history. Italian army was not the best indeed, but it was much larger and better equipped. than greek one, it was more like a wierd example of "bad roll" in real war.

I do not agree. The Italian Army looked great on paper, but its leaders acted poorly. The initial Italian force was very weak indeed and the Italians invaded through difficult terrain. Furthermore, Italian morale was low and Greek morale was very good. It was poor planning and execution of the invasion and not bad luck which led to the Italian disaster.

@Ronnie
Should you succeed to take Greece without German support, you could justify to launch Barbarossa a few turns earlier. According to some historians the German support in Greece and the invasion of Yugoslavia led to a (perhaps even decisive) delay of Operation Barbarossa.

Something to laugh from the Wikipedia entry about the Greco-Italian war:

Hitler calls Mussolini on the phone:
"Benito aren't you in Athens yet?"
"I can't hear you Adolf."
"I said aren't you in Athens yet?"
"I can't hear you. You must be ringing from a long way off, presumably London."
Joke circulating in Occupied France, winter 1940-41

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:55 pm

Turn. 25. December 24, 1940 Axis. Air attacks against England called off. Italians launch counteroffensive in North Africa.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:59 pm

zechi wrote:@Ronnie
Should you succeed to take Greece without German support, you could justify to launch Barbarossa a few turns earlier. According to some historians the German support in Greece and the invasion of Yugoslavia led to a (perhaps even decisive) delay of Operation Barbarossa.

It'll be intresting to see if the Italians can conquer Greece before April 3, 1941 (i.e., when the Germans can intervene), which leaves the Italians 4 more turns (after this one) to capture Athens on their own.

zechi wrote:Something to laugh from the Wikipedia entry about the Greco-Italian war:

Hitler calls Mussolini on the phone:
"Benito aren't you in Athens yet?"
"I can't hear you Adolf."
"I said aren't you in Athens yet?"
"I can't hear you. You must be ringing from a long way off, presumably London."
Joke circulating in Occupied France, winter 1940-41

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:38 pm

Turn 26. January 13, 1941 Axis. Athens comes under siege. The Italians retreat again in North Africa.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:24 pm

rkr1958 wrote:Turn 26. January 13, 1941 Axis. Athens comes under siege. The Italians retreat again in North Africa.

New number strength colour for 60-80 effectiveness has definitely a poor visibility for naval units: look at the italian BB shore bombing Athens.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:31 pm

I have no problem with that and the contrast is certainly better than e. g. the orange strength color of the unit SE of Tobruk. You will always find combinations of color and terrain background that will make the contrast not very bright. The point is to find a color that will be usable in most combinations.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:21 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:I have no problem with that and the contrast is certainly better than e. g. the orange strength color of the unit SE of Tobruk. You will always find combinations of color and terrain background that will make the contrast not very bright. The point is to find a color that will be usable in most combinations.

I agree 100% with Borger. Even with my older eyes (

) the green on blue stands out just fine for me. As Borger pointed out the orange in the desert (e.g., look at Libya) is harder for me to dintinguish. Is that a 3 or an 8 or even possibly a 5? No problem there either. It's orange and I know the units in trouble. I click on the unit to see it's a 3.