Victory conditions for timed-out games

[fogman]

the whole thing is rather childish.

[stockwellpete]

As far as I know in all competitions if no army was able to brake the other, the outcome has always been considered a draw. No matter what the game says on the details after it ended.
So unless it is specified by the rules tournament, the proper and commom thing to do would be a rematch.

Yes, exactly. And that is what I have been saying all along. There are still 4 turns left in the game and I might not make it to the end anyway. The sensible thing would have been to carry on the game to its conclusion but The_Iron_Duke has stopped playing. Then, yesterday, he said we would go by Eric's decision, but now, because Eric is saying "re-match" (as all experienced FOG tournament players would do), he has unilaterally ended our match and the competition.

I am not sure what else I am supposed to do. I offered to resign so the tournament could be completed but Eric and Mark both said a re-match was the proper course of action. Anyway, congratulations to Eric - I think he has had three wins in the tournament so he is a worthy winner.

[the_iron_duke]

I had been willing to go along with ericdoman1's decision but I feel stockwellpete's attitude had made things untenable - I really didn't want to have to play another game against him.

If you other guys want to finish the tournament you can do as you will. I have decided to retire from playing the game once I have finished my other games in progress.

[FedeM]

Come on TID.

No need to resign playing the game because of this.

I think you both are great guys. Everyone can have disagreements or misunderstandings from time to time.

My girlfriend and me for example

You are both good players and we all need you around here.

Besides I want the chance to keep on battling you.

Cheers!

[frankpowerful]

that's the reason why i prefer not to play tournaments

[Lysimachos]

It's only a game guys!

Nobody's going to conquer the world or to loose his life in battle ..

Just enjoy the fun of the play and, if something isn't clear .. let resort to a draw of the Italian lottery!!!!!

EDIT
Pete knows what I mean and maybe it could be the fairer solution in this deadlock!
(1-45 for TID rule's rendition / 46-90 for Pete rule's rendition)

[stockwellpete]

It's only a game guys!

Nobody's going to conquer the world or to loose his life in battle ..

Just enjoy the fun of the play and, if something isn't clear .. let resort to a draw of the Italian lottery!!!!!

EDIT
Pete knows what I mean and maybe it could be the fairer solution in this deadlock!
(1-45 for TID rule's rendition / 46-90 for Pete rule's rendition)

TID has resigned the game now so perhaps I am the winner! It doesn't really matter - Eric is the winner of the tournament.

[the_iron_duke]

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we don't know we don't know. The circumstances that would lead to the demise of the good ship Festival of Pike were, for me, an unknown unknown.

Since, like another of the entrants to the tournament, I'm not a player in the League of Gentlemen, I was unaware that they didn't play Field of Glory according to the standard
Field of Glory rule set; or that they held a belief that all other unaffiliated tournaments had to follow their rules rather than the official game rules. This appears to be a sort of secret masonic precept that is not openly discussed in the forum and so is an unknown unknown to the uninitiated.

This was not only my first tournament as organiser but my first as a participant. I did ask the other players at the start whether there was anything I had missed regarding the tournament rules but was given no comment. It should really have been up to the old heads here to have used their tournament experience and advanced knowledge of the rule set to have recognised and identified this issue before tournament commencement.

All tournament participants were experienced players and I would expect that all have read the Field of Glory rules many times, right? Therefore, they would have known about the marginal victory for timed-out games rule even if they had decided to disregard it. One can think of their rule change as similar to a "house rule" in other games - perhaps one can compare it to playing a stranger at cards where you win the hand but then he says, "oh, I'm afraid the way we've decided to play in my house is that a 2 trumps an ace". Well, you should have said that before the game...

I just cannot believe this hadn't been seriously discussed somewhere else before as, although a time-out draw with a 25%+ BP difference is a rare occurrence, it is not to be never expected. If the League of Gentlemen's rule change is to be taken in earnest then it should be stated clearly in the rules at the head of every tournament.

The reason for the deviation from the standard rules has never been explained or spelt out. The contested game bears itself worthy of comparison with my victory against solly in the first round of the tournament. That was a skin-of-my-teeth victory and if I had not won the game in my turn, solly would have surely have won it next in his. stockwellpete, however, was soundly beaten and he attempted a tactical withdrawal with his remaining troops to try and eke out a draw. If both games were to be counted as victories, the result more worthy of the description "marginal" would have been the game against solly, which could have gone either way.

It is clear that stockwellpete, who appears to revel in his role as the creator and destroyer of tournaments, didn't fully comprehend the rules when he, after I brought up the time-out marginal victory rule, commented that I should therefore have awarded the other draws in the tournament as victories. He rather hoisted himself with his own petard here, revealing his lack of knowledge of the standard Field of Glory rule set as the other draws, being under 25% of margin did not fulfill the necessary criteria for a marginal victory. He then tried to bluster his way through the rest of the dispute with aggression and confrontation where what was needed, and was being called for, was a rational and level-headed discourse.

So, to summarise my conclusions at this inquest into the collapse of the tournament and into the sinking of the good ship Festival of Pike, there was:

i) Failure of the game's makers to have consistently made clear and put into practice their vision for the timed-out game marginal victory rule. The rules and the result notifier say one thing, the victory status screen says another. Since I resigned the disputed game on principle, I didn't get to see whether the game was registered as a victory/defeat or a draw on the results screen but I suspect it would have been shown as a victory not a draw.

ii) Failure of senior players to identify and disclose the deviation from the Field of Glory rule set that they like to use and to recognise the potential tournament-damaging implications of this if certain circumstances did come to be (which by unfortunate coincidence they did).

iii) Failure of players to act in a level-headed, rational and courteous manner while discussing this perfectly legitimate issue.

iv) Failure of myself as tournament organiser, as ultimate responsibility must lie with the ship's captain.

v) Not enough life boats.

[FedeM]

Do not know what to say...

[Turk1964]

Its over so i think the stone throwing should stop.Honestly if it annoys you so much and you cant move on just make yourself the winner and be done with it.Playing for a draw is quite legitimate if there seems no chance to win and the whole thing should of been replayed in silence.To come on the Forum and constantly complain and try to justify your actions is poor form old bean.Eric stated there was to be a rematch and you ignored him.He is a very accomplished player and has run his fair share of contests and you chose to ignore his decision for your own benifit.Stop this childish behaviour and move on

[fogman]

well, stockwellpete should have conceded defeat since he was clearly outfought and going for a technicality is not in the spirit of a friendly tournament. but then the iron duke failed to take the high road. when people take those things too seriously you get pettiness. it's a damn game people!

[stockwellpete]

well, stockwellpete should have conceded defeat since he was clearly outfought and going for a technicality is not in the spirit of a friendly tournament.

Ridiculous. Of course I was entitled to try and save the game. I didn't stop playing and I didn't resign either. I contacted the other two semi-finalists (Eric and Mark) and offered to resign if they thought I should, but they said I should get a re-match if I could survive to the end of the first game.

[fogman]

keywords: spirit of a friendly tournament.

[the_iron_duke]

Ah Turk1964, I was half hoping you would weigh in. I have so far held my tongue from giving you the lash but since I find you on the opposing side of my forum discussions with unerring regularity I have decided that you are now a legitimate target too.

There is no-one I have liked playing in this game less than you, but probably no-one I play more since you are always taking the games I set up. Every game I have to listen to your whining about how unlucky with the dice rolls you are and how the game is broken. Every game. No-one has resigned more games on me.

Every time I've defeated you, and there have been many times, you always blame your defeat on bad luck and the game being broken and you never have the good grace to accept that your opponent might have played a good game.

You frequently complain about things and it is then revealed that you are ignorant of the actualities. For example, complaining that the game takes a random number of BPs for looting a camp until it's pointed out to you that it takes 10% rounded down with a minimum of two BP. Or claiming that there were no provisions for a draw in the FoP tournament and that the winner should be decided by coin toss, when the rules had stated a rematch was in order.

So, as one of the most graceless players playing the game you have absolutely zero legitimacy in commenting on someone else's etiquette. I will, however, take apart your post piece-by-piece because, as always, it is so easy to do.

Honestly if it annoys you so much and you cant move on just make yourself the winner and be done with it.

I'm sure you have noticed that fair play is something close to my heart. I therefore have no wish to win by any other way than fairly and by the book. Equally, I do not wish to lose a game unfairly. According to the rules of the game I was about to win a match fairly and so it is understandable that I was aggrieved when this was about to be taken away.

What vexed me as much as losing a victory was the violation of the rules. A tournament needs a clear set of rules or otherwise chaos will inevitably ensue. I feel I created a set of tournament rules that should have held firm. It was undone by people wanting to bring a previously undiscussed unofficial rule into the tournament. With hindsight, what I should have done was copy and paste the Victory Conditions section of the standard Field of Glory rule set into the tournament rules.

and the whole thing should of been replayed in silence.

I think you have a trouble computing the information you read as you should have noticed that of the two contesting parties I was the one calling for things to be dealt with in a rational manner rather than escalating things into a personal squabble. I'm sure that if stockwellpete had kept his head and argued his case in a logical manner then we would have found a solution.

To come on the Forum and constantly complain and try to justify your actions is poor form old bean.

This is just a plain stupid comment. Forums are places of discussion and discourse. That's what they are there for.

Eric stated there was to be a rematch and you ignored him.He is a very accomplished player and has run his fair share of contests and you chose to ignore his decision for your own benifit.

As I have said, I was prepared to stoically go along with ericdoman1's decision in the interests of the tournament, even though I felt and still feel that his decision was, from a technical aspect at least, wrong and that it was given without any explaining context. I had wanted a rational and bureaucratic discussion but stockwellpete elevated it into something more personal. Once he had done so, there was no way I was going to play him or even finish the game. I don't play the game with cads and bounders - I should have put that in the tournament rules.

Well, the rest of you can raise your heads from the parapets now. I have now applied my metaphorical sword to the community members I have wished to smite. The rest of you are, to be fair, a decent bag with there being a smattering of decent fellows mixed in for good measure.

[TheGrayMouser]

This is one of the more sordid threads I have ever seen here...

Why the heck is it even on the main forums and not in the apropriate tournement thread?

TID: it doesnt matter in the slightest how clear or "technical" YOU perceived YOUR rules to be, it appears the players within thought contrary to you. As an organizer , especially one participating in you own competition, you needed to step back with a "take one" for the team aproach. No doudt this is gotten too out of control to fix anything now but its never to late to try , right? Maybe its time to sheath your metaphorical +3 Sword of Vorpal Verbiage?

[stockwellpete]

keywords: spirit of a friendly tournament.

Well, either it is a tournament - or it isn't. And I was entitled to play to the end of the game at the very least, surely? I couldn't because "tiddles" resigned. I would have resigned myself if Eric and Mark had told me to, but they didn't so I was prepared to continue.

[stockwellpete]

This is one of the more sordid threads I have ever seen here...:

Next week we are going to discuss Jimmy Savile!

[the_iron_duke]

This is one of the more sordid threads I have ever seen here...

I'm afraid the pair of tits on display in this thread are rather grotesque.

[TheGrayMouser]

Swing low, sweet chariots...

[Turk1964]

I think you are now spitting words to see where they splatter :lol:I think this thread should be locked by a moderator as its getting out of control and name calling is about as low as one can go. Its only a game after all.