Mounted

[marty]

I have a suspicion that all of the 2dice a base cav types (det horse, cavaliers, gendarmes) are actually rather poor value regardless of their weapon capabilities, armour and quality.

They are very expensive, no better in POA's than other cav, overlaps count for little in FOG R and spreading wide is often very dangerous from a base loss point of view. The people I play with have by and large abandoned them in favour of Horse or occasionally cavalry.

I realise comparisons with FOG A are problematic but the points gap between cav and Knights in FOG A (13-9) is actually smaller than the gap between horse and det horse in FOG R (12-7). Knights absolutely crush similarly equipped horse in ancients. Det horse (in spite costing relatively more) are nowhere near as advantaged over normal horse.

Having said all that I have only played a couple of dozen games among a small pool of players so I may be missing something. What sort of mounted types are seen at the top of big open UK comps?

Martin

[ravenflight]

I have a suspicion that all of the 2dice a base cav types (det horse, cavaliers, gendarmes) are actually rather poor value regardless of their weapon capabilities, armour and quality.

They are very expensive, no better in POA's than other cav, overlaps count for little in FOG R and spreading wide is often very dangerous from a base loss point of view. The people I play with have by and large abandoned them in favour of Horse or occasionally cavalry.

I realise comparisons with FOG A are problematic but the points gap between cav and Knights in FOG A (13-9) is actually smaller than the gap between horse and det horse in FOG R (12-7). Knights absolutely crush similarly equipped horse in ancients. Det horse (in spite costing relatively more) are nowhere near as advantaged over normal horse.

Having said all that I have only played a couple of dozen games among a small pool of players so I may be missing something. What sort of mounted types are seen at the top of big open UK comps?

Martin

Yeah Martin, the Hugeunots are looking good again...

[madaxeman]

Knights absolutely crush similarly equipped horse in ancients. Det horse (in spite costing relatively more) are nowhere near as advantaged over normal horse.

Knights in AM chief benefit is gained from being better armoured than almost anything else on the table, which is a +POA in mellee against practically every opponent they meet, so they are usually at +1, and at worst at evens. They are invariably Superior too. These benefits act as a force-multiplier on the 2-dice-per-base aspect.

The armour benefit just doesn't apply in R, except for a small handful of early period Gendarmes, so I suspect what we are learning is that the benefit of 2 dice per base is also diluted as a result.

[hazelbark]

The armour benefit just doesn't apply in R, except for a small handful of early period Gendarmes, so I suspect what we are learning is that the benefit of 2 dice per base is also diluted as a result.

Well it does in most Mounted v Mounted combat.
Determined Horse being shock has other effects too.
But overlaps only be 1 die, does dilute aas you say.

[madaxeman]

The armour benefit just doesn't apply in R, except for a small handful of early period Gendarmes, so I suspect what we are learning is that the benefit of 2 dice per base is also diluted as a result.

Well it does in most Mounted v Mounted combat.
Determined Horse being shock has other effects too.
But overlaps only be 1 die, does dilute aas you say.

Aaah - I meant that very few mounted are better than "armoured", irrespective of whether they are 2-dice to a base or 1 die per base.... and the most common Heavily Armoured troops are in fact Horse, not Determined Horse. So "better armour" is not usually found in combination with "2 dice per base", but in AM it almost always is.

Put another way, if all Knights in AM were only armoured, would you see a lot more Cataphracts in open competitions ?

[marty]

So does anyone actually feel the 2 dice a base cav are a good buy for the points and use them in preference to horse when they have a choice? (And I dont just mean because they love the look of winged hussars or wanted to play a League of Augsburg army or some other perfectly valid but less than logical reason). Is there an army that requires significant numbers of them that has been a consistent comp winner? I understand one of the top UK players consistently uses predominately mounted armies, what types of mounted does he favour?

I've just found they get consistently rolled by greater numbers of much cheaper horse and given up on using them.

Martin

[ravenflight]

So does anyone actually feel the 2 dice a base cav are a good buy for the points and use them in preference to horse when they have a choice? (And I dont just mean because they love the look of winged hussars or wanted to play a League of Augsburg army or some other perfectly valid but less than logical reason). Is there an army that requires significant numbers of them that has been a consistent comp winner? I understand one of the top UK players consistently uses predominately mounted armies, what types of mounted does he favour?

I've just found they get consistently rolled by greater numbers of much cheaper horse and given up on using them.

Martin

One thing that was just pointed out to me is that Horse cannot break-off from Determined Horse, whereas the reverse is not true. This CAN be a benefit, but I'm not sure if it is. I mean, the Determined Horse break off because they're disrupted, and then get charged in the very next turn (mostly).

I'm guessing there would be times when that IS a benefit, but I'm not sure it's worth 7 (or 10) points.

One place, Martin, where I can see it being a benefit is where I'm up against your infamous Covenanters. The commanded shot would have to firstly test to charge, but would also not likely be in range to charge, which means that the Determined Horse may have a chance to recover.

Again, not worth 7 (or 10) points IMHO.

[madaxeman]

I'm just finishing off my battle reports from Britcon, and it appears (ahem) that there are a number of occasions where my Cuirassiers (through no fault of their own....of course!) get caught as isolated units by units of enemy Determined Armoured Horse, and are double overlapped as a result.

When this happened it usually (but not always) seems to have ended badly for my Cuirassiers.... so maybe there is a way to use Determined Horse succesfully.

Unfortunately that scenario appears to be "Against me"

[timmy1]

Same seems to apply to artillery...

[marty]

While artillery might not be great value for what it does it is a less clear case than the 2 dice a base cav. Artillery performs a role no other troop type can do and it is thus harder to establish a clear value. Determined horse and the like dont really do anything Horse cant do in a much more points efficient fashion.

Martin

[geoff]

I think you have to look at the value of horse vs determined horse strictly in the instance where both are the same armour class. morale and weaponry. In this situation if determined horse come into contact with horse in a situation where no other BG's are interfering then unless they are very unlucky the determined horse will win almost all the time.
In a four base on four match up without expansions the det. horse can lose two bases and still fight with 4 dice. Horse lose 1 base and they are below this already. If there is room to expand the horse cannot whereas det. horse can adding more dice to the equation. These by themselves warrant a significant premium. The added bonus of disabling the horse ability to break off if they get disrupted is also very good.

What may be an issue is when det. horse confront horse with better armour. It is here that the equation is skewed.

Geoff

[marty]

I think you have to look at the value of horse vs determined horse strictly in the instance where both are the same armour class. morale and weaponry. In this situation if determined horse come into contact with horse in a situation where no other BG's are interfering then unless they are very unlucky the determined horse will win almost all the time.

I'm not sure this is the case. Unless the det horse have room to expand against a unit of horse that doesn't simply have neighbouring friends they are not significantly more likely to win. In most games one flank has wall to wall cav (assuming one flank is unappealing due to terrain and the centre is taken up by pike and or shot foot you dont want to fight). this leaves no room to expand and then the det horse simply cant use their (very expensive) advantages effectively.

I realise this is a simplistic generalisation about a varied and complicated game but it is, I feel, a fairly valid one. My parlimentarian mounted never includes Cromwell's boys anymore as I have found them simply not worth it. The second rate horse, who were historically incapable of beating anything, are a much better buy.

Martin

[ravenflight]

I think you have to look at the value of horse vs determined horse strictly in the instance where both are the same armour class. morale and weaponry. In this situation if determined horse come into contact with horse in a situation where no other BG's are interfering then unless they are very unlucky the determined horse will win almost all the time.
In a four base on four match up without expansions the det. horse can lose two bases and still fight with 4 dice. Horse lose 1 base and they are below this already. If there is room to expand the horse cannot whereas det. horse can adding more dice to the equation. These by themselves warrant a significant premium. The added bonus of disabling the horse ability to break off if they get disrupted is also very good.

What may be an issue is when det. horse confront horse with better armour. It is here that the equation is skewed.

Geoff

I don't have enough experience to be certain, but I disagree with your assessment in one way - 4 determined horse can cost a LOT more than 4 Horse. So, if you went with even points the value would be more accurate. Ultimately if something is severely broken (as in FoG:A undrilled foot) you wont see it in open competition winning circles, or you'll see it doing things ahistorically.

I'm reserving my opinion, but I'm thinking that Determined Horse aren't worth the points... which sucks, because I really want to build a Louis XIV army and be competative. I don't want to build a killer, I just don't want to be hamstrung by points inequality.

We'll see...