Battle Cards

[lordzimoa]

Guys, you will find it out in Beta testing...

[Xerkis]

Guys, you will find it out in Beta testing...

I bet you are awesome at playing poker too.

[TheGrayMouser]

Just a thought re cards, there is a free ware "tactical" game called Hoplite which is pretty good. If they are going the card rout , that could be interesting.

[lordzimoa]

Thanks, for the tip, it is very cool.

[Xerkis]

Just a thought re cards, there is a free ware "tactical" game called Hoplite which is pretty good. If they are going the card rout , that could be interesting.

If Lordz / Slitherine wouldn't mind . . . . do you have a link?
Purely for researching purposes.

[lordzimoa]

I will PM you.

Tim

[Xerkis]

I spent about 2 hours playing the “Hoplite” game last night. Which I think is a fair enough time to at least get a feel for what the general idea and flow of how the game works. And for “battle cards” in general as well – which was the reason why I played Hoplite.

I can see how playing a game like that might be fun – I might even enjoy it myself once I understood all the abbreviations and tactics a bit better. But to have this as part of a game (with all the other stuff that has been listed as being part of Sovereignty) and to have it as the combat determination. . . . . . well, all my other previous statements still stand. In fact, I would like to highlight them again.

I think it would just not seem to fit well with the rest of the described game. Feel like it was almost an afterthought or something that was copy / pasted on to the game from someplace else hoping it would fit but just doesn’t. Maybe some people out there would like this type of a game – and if this is the direction that the game is going to be going in, I hope there are – for me though. . . . . . . . . It took what I thought looked to be the game of the century and turned it in to one that I won’t even lift an eye towards.

I sure hope I’m wrong in all of this or that the direction changes – and since either or both of those are very possible since it is (I think still in Pre-Alpha), you can bet I will stay tuned for updates (and news of Open Beta).

Maybe if you insist on using battle cards to do combat you can at least have an option to auto calculate the outcome so someone like myself won’t have to suffer through that part and still enjoy the rest of the game. I say that somewhat kiddingly but yet in seriousness too. I know in some games (Forge of Freedom for one) have and auto calc on the combat. You either can auto calc the combat and let the AI figure it out and give you the results or you go to the combat screen and go through the normal detail combat – in this game I guess that I might mean using battle cards if you want to.

Anyhow – look forward to hearing more about this game . . . . . .whatever it ends up being.

[Wodin]

I still think Lordz should play Dominions 3 and then take that combat mechanic but enhance it with a modern UI and graphics. Dom 3 should be the set yardstick for all future 4x Fantasy games.

[Xerkis]

I still think Lordz should play Dominions 3 and then take that combat mechanic but enhance it with a modern UI and graphics. Dom 3 should be the set yardstick for all future 4x Fantasy games.

I don’t know anything about that game – so I wouldn’t have an opinion on that one myself. . . . . . Other than if they did, then everyone would be saying “hey, all you did was steal this from Dominions 3”

[Wodin]

xerkis, boy your missing out big time. Everything you want this to be Dom 3 already is. It's a touch expensive, but it's regarded as the best detailed indepth fantasy game out, with countless nations, countless spells and countless units plus countless mods.

I'm using Warhammer nations at the moment and it comes closer to Warhammer than any warhammer game made.

Taking the best ideas out of the best game in the genre then improving and expanding on them I can't see anyone complaining at all. Your comment shows that you haven't played it, otherwise you'd be all over the idea. All games in a genre copy each other, thats what makes them a genre jts some do it alot better than others and throw in the odd unique features.

Seriously its the best game in Shrapnels portfolio (taking SPWAW out of the equation, though it's on par). Forget the price, don't worry about the screenshots,just buy it.

[Xerkis]

xerkis, boy your missing out big time. Everything you want this to be Dom 3 already is. It's a touch expensive, but it's regarded as the best detailed indepth fantasy game out, with countless nations, countless spells and countless units plus countless mods.

I'm using Warhammer nations at the moment and it comes closer to Warhammer than any warhammer game made.

Taking the best ideas out of the best game in the genre then improving and expanding on them I can't see anyone complaining at all. Your comment shows that you haven't played it, otherwise you'd be all over the idea. All games in a genre copy each other, thats what makes them a genre jts some do it alot better than others and throw in the odd unique features.

Seriously its the best game in Shrapnels portfolio (taking SPWAW out of the equation, though it's on par). Forget the price, don't worry about the screenshots,just buy it.

Hahaha. . . . . . I’m not that easily convinced on any purchase – especially on a game. Graphics is always a major concern of mine – games always have too much of them. . . . . . plus I keep forgetting the combination to my wallet.

[TheGrayMouser]

DOM 3 is no doudt a good game but certainly NOT everyones cup of T

Its large and flexible but there is NO diplomacy (except fight not fight)

Therds no concept of oceans , except that as water you need to build monsters that can live fight under water, no ships tranporting of troops.

Tac combat: basicly you organize your troops in formations, and then unleash a realtime display of the battle, again not everyone necasarily wants that.

The game itself has a very cold and mechanical feel. Its basically a #'s cruching game of bulding up your pretender and adding to retinues of increaingly more powerful techs/spells.

Anyways, a good solid game but I dont want Soverginty to try and replicate it by any means.

[Xerkis]

DOM 3 is no doudt a good game but certainly NOT everyones cup of T

Its large and flexible but there is NO diplomacy (except fight not fight)

Therds no concept of oceans , except that as water you need to build monsters that can live fight under water, no ships tranporting of troops.

Tac combat: basicly you organize your troops in formations, and then unleash a realtime display of the battle, again not everyone necasarily wants that.

The game itself has a very cold and mechanical feel. Its basically a #'s cruching game of bulding up your pretender and adding to retinues of increaingly more powerful techs/spells.

Anyways, a good solid game but I dont want Soverginty to try and replicate it by any means.

Sounds like a lot of missing pieces and too much hands off right when you want to be involved.
I would agree with you Gray – please let’s not go that way.

[Wodin]

Well you give out orders and positions pre battle, far better system than battle cards and my favourite battle system , Xerkis you discount it way to easily considering you've never played it. Well your missing out big time. I discounted it for years until recently and was shocked at what I found in a good way. To say it has alot of "missing features" is rather funny considering many who play it feel it's one of the most feature rich and indepth fantasy games out there. Until you play it you can't discount it so off handedly.

As for mechanical, blimey I found it far from cold and mechanical, infact I found it highly immersive and thats with rather poor graphics, plus you have far more things to think about and todo than nearly all other fantasy strategy games.

As for the other points ( naval etc) thats exactly my point add those features to Dom3 style game and your onto a massive winner.

I will say this Xerkis, Sov with a battle card system wont be a patch on Dom3, so you will end up with nothing to play. Very few fantasy gamers who have tried Dom 3 will have negative things to say about it except maybe the AI.

Again I say take Dom 3 as a core and work on it to add all the features Sov promises and we have something special, otherwise I can forsee Sov as being a lite cookie cutter game. Which certainly isn't for me.

[Xerkis]

Well, going by what TheGrayMouser has said, seems to me like there are some very important things missing there. And by going by what you just said as well – I’m not at all interested in pre-battle order giving and then watch it take place. That’s a huge negative in my book.
But, I’m sure it has its good points too – even the worst of games do.


. . . . . . . . I already have the demo downloaded and installed and there is a weekend going to start in only a few hours – so relax my friend.

[TheGrayMouser]

Dont want to dwell on Dom 3 but some some general things come to mind. Every gamer likly has a vision of a perfect strategic wargame. Mine is realistic strategies( and when I mean realistic it has nothing to do with the venue, ie ww2, fantasy , what I mean is: why is it better to invade province x by way of province A rather than B? Because A has a friendly population and enough logistics support to enable your army to do so ) and diplomacy, coupled with detailed tac battles.
I want wars to start in my game for reasons wars were fought historically. I want to covet that other nations province because it contains several hightly profitable ports that will give access to the bugbear hide trade etc etc . Not a game where each province might as well just be another grid on a map.(this is the feel I get out of Dom 3)
If you look at all the major wars in Europe and the major battles, you will see the vast majorty of them were fought: in the low countries, along the Danube in lower Germany and in Northern Italy. Thats where the concentration of population, wealth and the means to maneuver large armies were. Thats what I want in a game, the concept of war does have a purpose and isnt just a generic landgrab to get BIGGER. In a fantasy game, not being fettered by history and expectations , in some ways might make it easier to accomplish

However, realistically I doudt I will see a game that marries a in depth strat game to a detailed tac game as very , very few game companies can pull this off( Total War games, Matrix' COGEE are the few that come to mind) For all intents and purposes gamers would be expecting two games but also likly expecting the price to be for just one!. Also, I recognise many gamers have no interest in detailed tac combat interfering with a strategic game....

So, my guess is Sovergnty will see some kind of combat system, but certainly not a detailed hex map like Field of Glory ( although that would be so awsome) i do believe it will be an active combat sytem, whether its by cards or similar to Dom3 , dont know. I am pretty sure they will provide a simple autoresolve function as well.

So my only request is the following: please enable the ability to import /export the tac battle stats to be able to play out a tac battle by your own third party means ( whether you use FOG , a board game, a table top game, your ancient copy of Fantasy General, whatever) Few game have this, but notably , the two I do know are by Matrix: Campaigns on the Danube and Empire in Arms. It seems the programming for such would be pretty basic, and there nothing that could really be on the downside ( you cant cheat yourself in single player, and it clearly could be disabled for MP if warranted)
No doudt no matter how good the staegic game is, no way everyone will be happy with the tac, this gives at least some option, cheers!

[Wodin]

Sorry got my knickers in a twist! Sorry Xerkis, I suppose I was abit saddened you wrote it off so quick as I feel you may like it alot, I also wrote it off for years.

We all want a more wargame like approach though to this game I reckon, so thats something we agree on

Again I apologise if I came across as off hand.

[Xerkis]

TheGrayMouser, The more I hear you speak the more it sounds like you and I want the same kind of games.


. . . . . . . And by the way - I working my way through the demo of Dom 3 as I type this. Slow going so far - mostly because of outside "things" pulling me away.

[Wodin]

Keep going with it, also read the forums as it helps. I'm using alot of warhammer nations on a massive map at present. Remember to research then start to forge weapons and use spells to get mages. Also make sure you recruit loads of priests and put them to research, I usually always recruit a priest or someone with a high research number in any province I don't want to recruit a fighter in. Make sure it's province has a low\cheap recruit hero and some fighters and put them out to patrol.

It took me a about three or four goes to get the mechanics of it. Research is vital.

[Xerkis]

I don’t see the need to “keep going with it” – at least not at this point in time.

The whole reason for playing Dom3 was the same reason for trying the Hoplite game – to do some research in to other games' ways of combat resolution. And then to give feedback to the Devs here on that. And if the Devs missed it – please see about a dozen posts above, about my thoughts after I played Hoplite (please).

But now after going through a few battles in Dom3, I can say that for how dead set against “Battle Cards” I am as being the means to determine combat in Sovereignty. . . . . . . . . . . . I would gladly take the cards over the way Dom 3 does its battles. How totally disappointing. This was an even greater way of how not to do combat in any game – especially Sovereignty.

In Dom 3’s defense though, It seems (or feels like) there was some depth in certain areas of the game – but maybe the Dev team ran out of ideas or all died in a fishing boat accident before finishing the game and they just never got around to doing the combat part. Perhaps Dom 4 they will finally complete the game.