About the Low Countries spearmen in some nations' 1050-1154 AD army lists

[Athos1660]

So it's still a doubt I guess.Maybe should follow the manuscript about that,treated them as normal armoured spearmen in 11-12th Century.

Neither do you produce proof of the contrary.

Richard’s approach is clear : he follows an author (Ian Heath) who mentions his sources in a 'select bibliography' at the end of his book, so you can read and assess all these books and make your own opinion about the author’s statements and thus about the validity of the presence of the discussed unit in game at the said period.

By contrast, Dux Limitis, your approach seems to me rather weak. You don’t seem to be an academic historian. Do you have the skills and knowledge to assess Heath's bibliography ? Some of your sources seems to be quite unreliable and limited, such as popular history magazines (e.g.when speaking about Bouvines). In the discussion about Bouvines, you seemed to discard my academic source without trying to know more about it, seemingly just because it didn't prove your point. And your reasoning in this current thread is not scientific : you can’t prove that most of the Low Countries spearmen mercenaries didn’t use long spears just by showing a few illustrations showing apparently short spears (some look rather long btw). Can you affirm that these artists never took liberty with realism ? Can you affirm that these illustrations are representative of all the actual Low Countries mercenary spearmen of the period ?

imho you often deliver certainties while real historians express doubts.

Btw repeating a statement doesn’t make it true.

It is nothing personal. We are talking about historicity. Tell me 'Heath and his bibliography are wrong because since, Ms X and Mr. Y, two authoritative scholars, showed this and that, based on these sources' and I will follow you

[Dux Limitis]

So it's still a doubt I guess.Maybe should follow the manuscript about that,treated them as normal armoured spearmen in 11-12th Century.

Neither do you produce proof of the contrary.

Richard’s approach is clear : he follows an author (Ian Heath) who mentions his sources in a 'select bibliography' at the end of his book, so you can read and assess all these books and make your own opinion about the author’s statements and thus about the validity of the presence of the discussed unit in game at the said period.

By contrast, Dux Limitis, your approach seems to me rather weak. You don’t seem to be an academic historian. Do you have the skills and knowledge to assess Heath's bibliography ? Some of your sources seems to be quite unreliable and limited, such as popular history magazines (e.g.when speaking about Bouvines). In the discussion about Bouvines, you seemed to discard my academic source without trying to know more about it, seemingly just because it didn't prove your point. And your reasoning in this current thread is not scientific : you can’t prove that most of the Low Countries spearmen mercenaries didn’t use long spears just by showing a few illustrations showing apparently short spears (some look rather long btw). Can you affirm that these artists never took liberty with realism ? Can you affirm that these illustrations are representative of all the actual Low Countries mercenary spearmen of the period ?

imho you often deliver certainties while real historians express doubts.

Btw repeating a statement doesn’t make it true.

It is nothing personal. We are talking about historicity. Tell me 'Heath and his bibliography are wrong because since, Ms X and Mr. Y, two authoritative scholars, showed this and that, based on these sources' and I will follow you

We're all not academic historians except Mr.RBS.I'm just clarifying my opinion with my sources.About the Ian heath you given,did he provide any sources about the Low Countries spearmen use the long spears from the 11th century,except in a word said by himself?

I already produced proof of the contrary from the Mosaner Psalter,from the mid 12th century,Liege.It was directly from one of the low countries and it was relatively rigorous when compared to most of the others in the same priod,here's another page of it,still the spears' length seems not like 12 or 16 feet long.

I didn't force you to follow me,I provide my source and opinions,it's your own business to see,and believe or not.

"Repeating a statement doesn't make it true".First thing is there're really less sources about how Low Countries soldiers fight in the early times,also in The Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare and Military Technology,most noted records about how they fight were started from the 13,14th century(Especially 14th century).Except of these then all we left are Ian Heath's and manuscript,and I have doubt with the I.Heath said Low Countries spearmen started use long spears from the 11th century(He didn't provide any direct sources about that).

One last thing,I hope you to change your aggressive tone when you speak to me.

[Athos1660]

About the Ian heath you given,did he provide any sources about the Low Countries spearmen use the long spears from the 11th century,except in a word said by himself?

You (and I) would know it if you (and I) had read the books in the bibliography he provides at the end of his book.

I already produced proof of the contrary from the Mosaner Psalter,from the mid 12th century,Liege.

No, this doesn't prove most of them had short spears.
This is only the proof that a given artist painted short spears.

One last thing,I hope you to change your aggressive tone when you speak to me.

Sorry, my goal was not to hurt you but to point out that History is very demanding and takes a lot of knowledge, moderation and humility before affirming things (especially tiny ones, such as the presence or absence of a given unit during a short period of time).

[Dux Limitis]

About the Ian heath you given,did he provide any sources about the Low Countries spearmen use the long spears from the 11th century,except in a word said by himself?

You (and I) would know it if you (and I) had read the books in the bibliography he provides at the end of his book.

I already produced proof of the contrary from the Mosaner Psalter,from the mid 12th century,Liege.

No, this doesn't prove most of them had short spears.
This is only the proof that a given artist painted short spears.

One last thing,I hope you to change your aggressive tone when you speak to me.

Sorry, my goal was not to hurt you but to point out that History is very demanding and takes a lot of knowledge, moderation and humility before affirming things (especially tiny ones, such as the presence or absence of a given unit during a short period of time).

So I think we're done.Both of us can only provide single source to prove own opinions because sources about this are lacked.We'll have to agree to disagree in this thing.Thanks for your opinions anyways.

[gribol]

One last thing,I hope you to change your aggressive tone when you speak to me.

Usually I don't like being involved in discussions in which I am not actively involved, but this time I'll make an exception.
Only one agressive, overweening and arrogant person that i see in lot of discussions on this forum is you.
You just provoke another people to beeing unpleasant in relation to you.
Besides, with your uncompromising attitude, you can spoil any pleasant discussion.

[Dux Limitis]

One last thing,I hope you to change your aggressive tone when you speak to me.

Usually I don't like being involved in discussions in which I am not actively involved, but this time I'll make an exception.
Only one agressive, overweening and arrogant person that i see in lot of discussions on this forum is you.
You just provoke another people to beeing unpleasant in relation to you.
Besides, with your uncompromising attitude, you can spoil any pleasant discussion.

I don't wanna have conflict with anyone,but you intend to start a conflict.

Who was that one said Mongol lance+bow cavalry was unbalanced and "ahistorical" ,also knights infront of the army was an "unusual" tatic of that time before?Have you ever posted any constructive comments?You just know to "just" play the game but without thinking,also point the fingers to the things you don't know.

Have I tried to provoke anyone on purpose?If I clarify the opinion that you disagree can provoke you then that only means you're Irritability,pathetic.

What time I act as a one with agressive,did that because I could pissed you off by posted some opinions that you don't agree?Have I ever forced you to follow it?Or have I ever spoke to you or others with offensive tone?

At last,I wanna ask which "pleasant discussion" you talked about been spoiled by me?Or yet another false accusation?

That's all I have to say,have a nice day.

[gribol]

That's all I have to say,have a nice day.

And same to you !

[Joch1955]

interesting discussion. The only point I would make is whether their point costs and availability should be revisited. I noticed a lot of players load up with them when available (as do i ), but as mercenary units, were they really as common as we see in game?

[Paul59]

interesting discussion. The only point I would make is whether their point costs and availability should be revisited. I noticed a lot of players load up with them when available (as do i ), but as mercenary units, were they really as common as we see in game?

RBS said a few posts ago that the Low Countries spearmen are militia, not mercenaries. Apart from the Low Countries list, where they are obviously available in large numbers, they only appear in small numbers in French and some German lists, where they are probably representing men from towns under French or German control.

Flemish men who are operating as mercenaries are represented by the Armoured Spearmen units.

[Dux Limitis]

interesting discussion. The only point I would make is whether their point costs and availability should be revisited. I noticed a lot of players load up with them when available (as do i ), but as mercenary units, were they really as common as we see in game?

RBS said a few posts ago that the Low Countries spearmen are militia, not mercenaries. Apart from the Low Countries list, where they are obviously available in large numbers, they only appear in small numbers in French and some German lists, where they are probably representing men from towns under French or German control.

Flemish men who are operating as mercenaries are represented by the Armoured Spearmen units.

Then this makes sense now.The armoured Flemish spearmen in manuscripts can be represent as mercenaries,and due to the Mr.RBS use the Ian.Heath as source about the Flemish militia(Which use long spears from the 11th century early,still I have doubt with that so I never take them when I play the army lists which covered 11-12th century with some of them),the only thing we could do now is wait for the appropriate new models for the early Flemish militia that probably add in the future.