Slingers vs Javelinmen

[JaM2013]

Strategiusz: normal javelins cant penetrate shieds? of course they can. they did penetrate both shields and armors. There were multiple types of javelins, with different heads, for different purposes.. Iberian soliferrum for example was 2m long iron rod with pyramidal or leafed head, Falarica had similar precursor as Pilum, Hasta Velitaris, as well as Veruta both had precursor similar to pilum, with multiple different heads.. Celtic Gaesum was very similar to late roman tanged pilum.. etc etc..

and no, slingshot is slingshot, we are talking about ancient weapon, not something that started to be used just relatively recently. Every single military historian describes these projectiles as slingshots.

Regarding throwing from horse, as I said, its more problematic, because ancient rider doesnt have stable seat on the horse, so his throws would be quite similar to those from standing still without run-up. Yet they were riding a horse... Galloping horse would add to the release speed of the javelin... so if you could release a javelin at 15-16m/s from standstill, then galloping horse (9-11m/s) would add its speed to the release giving that javelin extra speed (so instead 15-16, it would have 25-26m/s - add typical weight of javelin around 500g, it will give you 160Joules of KE).. After all, using javelins from horseback was typical way how most of cavalry fought.. shock cavalry was not the norm, but exception...

[JorgenCAB]

Javelins thrown from a horse are not going to have more energy than a regular thrust since you are restricted to the same motions, at least in comparison with a galloping charge. Even on the ground you will be limited in the way that you need both speed and accuracy and need a balance between the two so even here I doubt a javelin throw will be much more powerful than a thrust, certainly not a thrust with a spear with two hands such as a pike. But of course that is pure speculation that is hard to verify. I don't know if javelin from horse used any help to be thrown for more range?

Any way I do think we can all agree that javelins where more damaging when hit properly, but a light javelin even when hit perfectly on a shield would not likely do much damage unless you where rather lucky. For the most part any hit on a shield would glans or bounce of because the one wielding it would make it so. As long as a unit was not surrounded and pestered with missiles from multiple directions most heavy infantry using large shields was pretty safe. This does not mean that you could disrupt less disciplined troops. Greek citizen hoplites are not that disciplined and can for sure be disrupted if pestered enough by Velites or Pila throwing Roman troops. A superior trained Roman legion cohort would certainly not break or become disrupted very easily from the same treatment and the Elite phalanx of Alexander the great would not break, that is the benefit of having superior troops.

When you read battle description and different troops ot weapons have effect of different sort it is important to know what type of troops it is and what their training probably was.

[JaM2013]

not again with the thrust! its completely different! just spend 5 minutes watching a video of a trainer explaining throwing technique...




0:56 - throws from standstill
1:20 - throws with short run-up

in all of them, arm position is completely different than what you would have with thrust...

[JorgenCAB]

Strategiusz: normal javelins cant penetrate shieds? of course they can. they did penetrate both shields and armors. There were multiple types of javelins, with different heads, for different purposes.. Iberian soliferrum for example was 2m long iron rod with pyramidal or leafed head, Falarica had similar precursor as Pilum, Hasta Velitaris, as well as Veruta both had precursor similar to pilum, with multiple different heads.. Celtic Gaesum was very similar to late roman tanged pilum.. etc etc..

and no, slingshot is slingshot, we are talking about ancient weapon, not something that started to be used just relatively recently. Every single military historian describes these projectiles as slingshots.

Regarding throwing from horse, as I said, its more problematic, because ancient rider doesnt have stable seat on the horse, so his throws would be quite similar to those from standing still without run-up. Yet they were riding a horse... Galloping horse would add to the release speed of the javelin... so if you could release a javelin at 15-16m/s from standstill, then galloping horse (9-11m/s) would add its speed to the release giving that javelin extra speed (so instead 15-16, it would have 25-26m/s - add typical weight of javelin around 500g, it will give you 160Joules of KE).. After all, using javelins from horseback was typical way how most of cavalry fought.. shock cavalry was not the norm, but exception...

You are still kompletely IGNORING the fact that no attack will EVER do max damage or at least it will be very rare. Javelins are slow enough to also be actively deflected or dodged. The longer the spear the easier this will be since the pivot point on the spear will reduce the impact quicker it not hit properly, which is pure physics to. That is for example one of the reason you use half swording in sword fighting to become more accurate and lessen the effect of deflecting the blow.

[JorgenCAB]

not again with the thrust! its completely different! just spend 5 minutes watching a video of a trainer explaining throwing technique...




0:56 - throws from standstill
1:20 - throws with short run-up

in all of them, arm position is completely different than what you would have with thrust...

Well pikes used to be thrust on the run as well or at least with some speed, would depend on the situation I guess. I guess thrust from horse in motion are similar as well with more speed and impact.

[JaM2013]

Strategiusz: normal javelins cant penetrate shieds? of course they can. they did penetrate both shields and armors. There were multiple types of javelins, with different heads, for different purposes.. Iberian soliferrum for example was 2m long iron rod with pyramidal or leafed head, Falarica had similar precursor as Pilum, Hasta Velitaris, as well as Veruta both had precursor similar to pilum, with multiple different heads.. Celtic Gaesum was very similar to late roman tanged pilum.. etc etc..

and no, slingshot is slingshot, we are talking about ancient weapon, not something that started to be used just relatively recently. Every single military historian describes these projectiles as slingshots.

Regarding throwing from horse, as I said, its more problematic, because ancient rider doesnt have stable seat on the horse, so his throws would be quite similar to those from standing still without run-up. Yet they were riding a horse... Galloping horse would add to the release speed of the javelin... so if you could release a javelin at 15-16m/s from standstill, then galloping horse (9-11m/s) would add its speed to the release giving that javelin extra speed (so instead 15-16, it would have 25-26m/s - add typical weight of javelin around 500g, it will give you 160Joules of KE).. After all, using javelins from horseback was typical way how most of cavalry fought.. shock cavalry was not the norm, but exception...

You are still kompletely IGNORING the fact that no attack will EVER do max damage or at least it will be very rare. Javelins are slow enough to also be actively deflected or dodged. The longer the spear the easier this will be since the pivot point on the spear will reduce the impact quicker it not hit properly, which is pure physics to. That is for example one of the reason you use half swording in sword fighting to become more accurate and lessen the effect of deflecting the blow.

If hundred skirmishers throw their javelins at your Cohort, good luck deflecting all of them... at that point, you would put your shield above your head, and would be praying that none of them would go all the way through...

And no, im not ignoring anything... he said javelin cannot penetrate shield.. I'm saying it can... im not saying it will do so in 100% of cases... thats quite a difference..

[JaM2013]

not again with the thrust! its completely different! just spend 5 minutes watching a video of a trainer explaining throwing technique...




0:56 - throws from standstill
1:20 - throws with short run-up

in all of them, arm position is completely different than what you would have with thrust...

Well pikes used to be thrust on the run as well or at least with some speed, would depend on the situation I guess. I guess thrust from horse in motion are similar as well with more speed and impact.

PIkes were 5-6kg heavy, held in both arms and unwieldy as hell... you can pretty much forget about thrusting with pike.. at least not for long...



2:00 - how hard is to thrust it.. or even control it...

[JorgenCAB]

Strategiusz: normal javelins cant penetrate shieds? of course they can. they did penetrate both shields and armors. There were multiple types of javelins, with different heads, for different purposes.. Iberian soliferrum for example was 2m long iron rod with pyramidal or leafed head, Falarica had similar precursor as Pilum, Hasta Velitaris, as well as Veruta both had precursor similar to pilum, with multiple different heads.. Celtic Gaesum was very similar to late roman tanged pilum.. etc etc..

and no, slingshot is slingshot, we are talking about ancient weapon, not something that started to be used just relatively recently. Every single military historian describes these projectiles as slingshots.

Regarding throwing from horse, as I said, its more problematic, because ancient rider doesnt have stable seat on the horse, so his throws would be quite similar to those from standing still without run-up. Yet they were riding a horse... Galloping horse would add to the release speed of the javelin... so if you could release a javelin at 15-16m/s from standstill, then galloping horse (9-11m/s) would add its speed to the release giving that javelin extra speed (so instead 15-16, it would have 25-26m/s - add typical weight of javelin around 500g, it will give you 160Joules of KE).. After all, using javelins from horseback was typical way how most of cavalry fought.. shock cavalry was not the norm, but exception...

You are still kompletely IGNORING the fact that no attack will EVER do max damage or at least it will be very rare. Javelins are slow enough to also be actively deflected or dodged. The longer the spear the easier this will be since the pivot point on the spear will reduce the impact quicker it not hit properly, which is pure physics to. That is for example one of the reason you use half swording in sword fighting to become more accurate and lessen the effect of deflecting the blow.

If hundred skirmishers throw their javelins at your Cohort, good luck deflecting all of them... at that point, you would put your shield above your head, and would be praying that none of them would go all the way through...

And no, im not ignoring anything... he said javelin cannot penetrate shield.. I'm saying it can... im not saying it will do so in 100% of cases... thats quite a difference..

Are all the spears hitting the same person, hundred of people will not throw at the same targets? There are many sources who tells us that infantry formations deflected incoming darts and javelins and came out more or less unskathed from the experience, usually highly experienced troops most likely. It is allot about training and experience if a unit can hold and stand firm under the hail of enemy missile fire no matter what type it is.

I'm sorry but the fact is that light troops using javelins are regarded as inflicting nominal losses and mainly worked as a disrupting force. Documentations are filled with such statements and very rarely are light troops told to have a major influence in the outcome of combat without the involvement with some kind of melee confrontation.

[JaM2013]

believe or not, but skirmishers usually didnt aimed at some particular men in the formation... they tried to hit the formation.. Your beloved archers were usually trained to get arrows into same area... English Longbowmen for example trained to get their arrows as close as possible to ranging arrow shot by their commander... at 200 yards, it was expected to have most of arrows land in 25m wide radius..

I'm sorry but the fact is that light troops using javelins are regarded as inflicting nominal losses and mainly worked as a disrupting force. Documentations are filled with such statements and very rarely are light troops told to have a major influence in the outcome of combat without the involvement with some kind of melee confrontation.

Tell that to the Spartans facing Athenian Peltasts, or Gauls who fought Romans at Tellamon for example...

[JorgenCAB]

believe or not, but skirmishers usually didnt aimed at some particular men in the formation... they tried to hit the formation.. Your beloved archers were usually trained to get arrows into same area... English Longbowmen for example trained to get their arrows as close as possible to ranging arrow shot by their commander... at 200 yards, it was expected to have most of arrows land in 25m wide radius..

Exactly my point, the missiles will be rather evenly distributed so each soldier would not look to be hit that often so could dodge or deflect an incoming missile. These things have been mentioned in sources before so why ignoring it?

The main reason for why Romans and Greek did not use more Bows and Slings was simply cost. Romans were certainly a pragmatic people and javelins worked well and the cost of training and equipping bows simply were too expensive in mass. It was not until the crossbow that missile weapons en mass all over europe was a reality, a weapon the required very little training to use effectively.

It has always been about the money in the end.

Societies that had the tradition to use bows could field them in large quantities for a reasonable cost, but arrows probably were rather expensive too both to make and the logistics in supplying them.

[JaM2013]

You kinda forget Roman Legions were formed of CITIZENS who got their own weapons and armor... Only middle class citizens were allowed to fight in the legion, therefore they would have no problem to equip themselves accordingly.. Out of 5 classes only 3 served in legions, and even from those three, each men was actually handpicked for campaign season (from all eligible that came), so only those best equipped were chosen for service in Consular Legions, which were usually the only legions drafted each year. Only in times of emergency more legions were drafted, therefore quality of equipment would go down.. But consular legion would be the best equipped of all.

And btw, it takes a lot more training to PROPERLY use javelin, than it is to learn how to use bow... So, no it was never about cost, why Roman Republican Legions didnt use bows but Javelins. not even close

[JorgenCAB]

And btw, it takes a lot more training to PROPERLY use javelin, than it is to learn how to use bow... So, no it was never about cost, why Roman Republican Legions didnt use bows but Javelins. not even close

Never heard that before... ...I just give up.

[JaM2013]

And btw, it takes a lot more training to PROPERLY use javelin, than it is to learn how to use bow... So, no it was never about cost, why Roman Republican Legions didnt use bows but Javelins. not even close

Never heard that before... ...I just give up.

which explains a lot... out of three (slings, bows, javelins) it was bow that was easiest to learn how to use.. If i gave you javelin and bow, and told you to hunt your own food, which weapon would be the easiest for you to kill something with?

[JorgenCAB]

Stupid question becasue it is easier to shoot from a distance that sneak close to a prey so has nothing to do with the skill of the weapon.

It would certainly be easier to learn how to hit a target at 30m with a Javelin than 100m with a Bow. We all know bows was notoriously difficult to use on the battlefields and the training to become an archer fit for war took a very long time. Romans eventually trained their own archers which were extensive training programs unlike that from regular legionaries.

[JaM2013]

Stupid question becasue it is easier to shoot from a distance that sneak close to a prey so has nothing to do with the skill of the weapon.

It would certainly be easier to learn how to hit a target at 30m with a Javelin than 100m with a Bow. We all know bows was notoriously difficult to use on the battlefields and the training to become an archer fit for war took a very long time. Romans eventually trained their own archers which were extensive training programs unlike that from regular legionaries.

No, you are basing this on experience of Medieval archers which are totally different thing to ancient archers.. Medieval English archers were specialist troops. they used a lot heavier bows than any ancient archer had, most of them would be unable even use it.. their technique was different, arrows used were a lot heavier than anything used in ancient times... typical English war-arrow was at least 2x heavier than ancient arrows.. some ancient archers used just 40-50g arrows, which were lighter than flight arrows, therefore were completely useless against armor or shields.. Using English Warbow required extensive training, because you had to build body mass, muscles etc..

With javelins, its the very same.. to use them effectively, you had to have developed body mass... ancient times give plenty of examples that Javelin throwing was practiced from youth, every single citizen Hoplite was trained to use javelin.. There were many sport competition where Javelin throw was one of important disciplines, not just Olympic games..
Skilled javelinmen were extremely accurate with their throws. you dont believe it possible? look at baseball players and their throw accuracy. or just rewatch the video with those kids doing those trickshots i posted yesterday.. Go ask university trainers who train athletes javelin throwing how "easy" is to master a javelin...

[76mm]

PIkes were 5-6kg heavy, held in both arms and unwieldy as hell... you can pretty much forget about thrusting with pike.. at least not for long...

[video]

2:00 - how hard is to thrust it.. or even control it...

Hmmm, not to change the topic, but that was an interesting video—was that sarissa “authentic”? I’ve always imagined that they were rather rigid, but the sarissa in that video was flopping and flexing around like it was made of rubber...

[76mm]

believe or not, but skirmishers usually didnt aimed at some particular men in the formation... they tried to hit the formation..

Skilled javelinmen were extremely accurate with their throws. you dont believe it possible? look at baseball players and their throw accuracy. or just rewatch the video with those kids doing those trickshots i posted yesterday.. Go ask university trainers who train athletes javelin throwing how "easy" is to master a javelin...

But i think that the point is that you don’t have to “master” a javelin to hit a formation—I've never thrown a javelin but I'm reasonably sure i could go outside right now and chuck a javelin 30 meters into a house-sized object like a phalanx...

[JaM2013]

PIkes were 5-6kg heavy, held in both arms and unwieldy as hell... you can pretty much forget about thrusting with pike.. at least not for long...

[video]

2:00 - how hard is to thrust it.. or even control it...

Hmmm, not to change the topic, but that was an interesting video—was that sarissa “authentic”? I’ve always imagined that they were rather rigid, but the sarissa in that video was flopping and flexing around like it was made of rubber...

Koryvantes takes things quite seriously, doubt they would made a video with something that was not historical (after all, they are historical studies group). Anyway, i read there are two different opinions on sarrisa. One side claims sarrisa was made of two parts, and was assembled only before battle. Others claim sarrisas were made monolithic. Anyway it really doesn't change much in terms how unwieldy weapon it was.. Personally, i think sarrisa was good as "area denying weapon", with dense formation it was hard to get pass them. anyway charging with this, or thrusting with it, would be very problematic, and if possible, it wouldn't be something you would be able to keep doing for long.. Look at it this way - battles where Pike Phalanx fought another Pike Phalanx, were not known for lot of casualties (typically, whoever cavalry defeated opponents cavalry, won the battle).. which is btw one of reasons why Macedonian society was so shocked after battle of Pydna, with all that carnage caused by Romans.. Macedonians were just not used to this type of combat, when they saw situation is desperate, they just rise the pikes up as a sign of surrender, but Romans didnt knew what that actually meant, and just slaughtered whoever they caught.. (most men were Iberian wars veteran with experiences from brutal ambush war waged there.. they just didnt give quaters

[JaM2013]

believe or not, but skirmishers usually didnt aimed at some particular men in the formation... they tried to hit the formation..

Skilled javelinmen were extremely accurate with their throws. you dont believe it possible? look at baseball players and their throw accuracy. or just rewatch the video with those kids doing those trickshots i posted yesterday.. Go ask university trainers who train athletes javelin throwing how "easy" is to master a javelin...

But i think that the point is that you don’t have to “master” a javelin to hit a formation—I've never thrown a javelin but I'm reasonably sure i could go outside right now and chuck a javelin 30 meters into a house-sized object like a phalanx...

you don't need to master it, anyway javelin throwing had strong tradition in both Greek and Roman society, young boys compete against each other in javelin throwing to show their prowess.. Whole point of youngsters joining the Velites was to prove themselves in front of others.. Originally, not all Velites were wearing the wolf skin - wolf has a special place in Roman mythology - typically, only those Velites who did something exceptional deserved the right to wear it - like for example challenge enemy into one on one combat and defeat him.. (but eventually animal skin wearing got wide spreaded)


Anyway both Romans and Greeks used archers as well - in their NAVY. Each Athenian Trireme carried 3-4 archers, while Romans typically had similar number of archers on their ships too (more on quinquerems) Important fact here is, that Romans considered naval service as less prominent, even lower class citizens that couldn't join the legions were allowed to serve in navy...

[Strategiusz]

Strategiusz: normal javelins cant penetrate shieds? of course they can. they did penetrate both shields and armors. There were multiple types of javelins, with different heads, for different purposes.. Iberian soliferrum for example was 2m long iron rod with pyramidal or leafed head, Falarica had similar precursor as Pilum, Hasta Velitaris, as well as Veruta both had precursor similar to pilum, with multiple different heads.. Celtic Gaesum was very similar to late roman tanged pilum.. etc etc..

In this game light foot javelinmen are suppose to use short light javelins. Heavy javelins are used by impact foot.

and no, slingshot is slingshot, we are talking about ancient weapon, not something that started to be used just relatively recently. Every single military historian describes these projectiles as slingshots.

That's ridiculous. Every dictionary says something different
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slingshot
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... /slingshot
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/slingshot
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/slingshot