Interpenetration

[timurilenk]

Second question from game tonight

I charged some LF which were 3 deep and they evaded through a BG of foot which were three deep.

All ranks reached the front of the heavies, but only two could get through and make their move + 2MU - the third would have required the other two to move more than this if it moved through.

What should we have done?

1. Moved them through anyway - based on the second sub bullet on p48 which says - in all other cases.
2. Stopped the third rank at the front edge of the heavies.

We decided the words indicate option 1, but I have a nagging feeling we should have done 2 - else what is the first sub bullet for?

Thanks

Ian[/img]

[Robert241167]

I'm voting for option 2 Ian.

Rob

[Blathergut]

If the bases made it to the front of the heavies, they are moved all the way through (bottom lefthand column p48). This disorders them until in the next turn the BG of LF is moved further through/back to completely clear the heavies.

You only split a BG if bases can't make it to the BG being interpenetrated.

[deadtorius]

Wells oe of us are still rooting for option 2, about time someone got the drop on those darn scampering lights!!!

Unfortunately Blathergut is most likely correct

[timurilenk]

Unfortunately Blathergut is most likely correct

This is more or less how we played it (except for the disorder which was not relevant anywhay)

[expendablecinc]

If the bases made it to the front of the heavies, they are moved all the way through (bottom lefthand column p48). This disorders them until in the next turn the BG of LF is moved further through/back to completely clear the heavies.

You only split a BG if bases can't make it to the BG being interpenetrated.

They are only for disordered if split (some bases dont reach the heavieseven with a +2 inch move) so I dont see how they go disordered if the LF are moved all the way through.

Anthony

[hammy]

In a lot of ways the +2 MU rule causes more confusion than most of the other rules in the game.

I would say that the vast majority of the time the +2 MU rule is irrelevant and that if it was totally removed it would not change the game. Consider in 15mm a BG of LF evading through a line of 2 deep HF. A LF base is 20mm deep, the HF formation is 30mm deep, 2 MU is 51.2mm. If the second rank of the LF BG ends up withing 1.2mm of the front of the HF then the +2 MU applies, if it actually makes it even partly into the base of the front rank then it is placed on the far side anyway.

When evading through formations more than 30mm deep the +2 MU rule will as far as I can fathom never apply as in order for an extra 2 MU to get the moving BG through the BG being interpenetrated it will need more than 2 MU of additional move.

The correct answer is 1 BTW

[Petefloro]

Hi all - We've had this situation a few times in our club games and the way we played it was different. The LF would burst thru friends blocking their way (move completley thru,no partial interpenetration-bottom right page 48 & Top page 49 also page 67) The troops that were burst thru would not drop a cohesion level because the LF could normaly interpenetrate them.
I think the partial interpretation thing applies during normal movement i.e. the manoeuvre phase.Any thoughts?

[hammy]

Hi all - We've had this situation a few times in our club games and the way we played it was different. The LF would burst thru friends blocking their way (move completley thru,no partial interpenetration-bottom right page 48 & Top page 49 also page 67) The troops that were burst thru would not drop a cohesion level because the LF could normaly interpenetrate them.
I think the partial interpretation thing applies during normal movement i.e. the manoeuvre phase.Any thoughts?

Partial interpenetration applies when some of the LF do not have enough move to begin interpenetrating the BG they are passing through. All bases that reach the BG being interpenetrated pass all the way through, bases that do not reach stay on the near side. In a very small number of circumstances the extra 2 MU will allow bases that do not reach to pass all the way through.

[timurilenk]

The correct answer is 1 BTW

Thanks James

I agree with you on the removal of the 2MU bit as well

Looks like we got this one right as well - scary!

Ian

[expendablecinc]

In a lot of ways the +2 MU rule causes more confusion than most of the other rules in the game.

I would say that the vast majority of the time the +2 MU rule is irrelevant and that if it was totally removed it would not change the game. Consider in 15mm a BG of LF evading through a line of 2 deep HF. A LF base is 20mm deep, the HF formation is 30mm deep, 2 MU is 51.2mm. If the second rank of the LF BG ends up withing 1.2mm of the front of the HF then the +2 MU applies, if it actually makes it even partly into the base of the front rank then it is placed on the far side anyway.

When evading through formations more than 30mm deep the +2 MU rule will as far as I can fathom never apply as in order for an extra 2 MU to get the moving BG through the BG being interpenetrated it will need more than 2 MU of additional move.

The correct answer is 1 BTW

this came up last night in a game with me as well. I had a column of LF mving at an angle through my own troops with 5 inches all could make it but this was irrelevant as it only applies to the second bullet point. the 1st bullet point covers LF and they cant interpenetrate if they go more than 7 and the last Base would have moved more than 7 inches.

[hammy]

this came up last night in a game with me as well. I had a column of LF mving at an angle through my own troops with 5 inches all could make it but this was irrelevant as it only applies to the second bullet point. the 1st bullet point covers LF and they cant interpenetrate if they go more than 7 and the last Base would have moved more than 7 inches.

There are two cases, the first is where light foot can get through with an extra 2 MU of move, the second is all other cases.

The second case does not preclude light foot. If a BG of light foot cannot fully interpenetrate with an extra 2MU of move then all bases of the LF BG that reach the BG being interpenetrated are moved through and the ones that don't reach with their normal move are left on the near side.

As I said earlier if the first case did not exist it would hardly change anything (I detailed a situation where it would change things earlier in the thread but it is very rare) and would cut a fair degree of confusion.

[lawrenceg]

this came up last night in a game with me as well. I had a column of LF mving at an angle through my own troops with 5 inches all could make it but this was irrelevant as it only applies to the second bullet point. the 1st bullet point covers LF and they cant interpenetrate if they go more than 7 and the last Base would have moved more than 7 inches.

There are two cases, the first is where light foot can get through with an extra 2 MU of move, the second is all other cases.

The second case does not preclude light foot. If a BG of light foot cannot fully interpenetrate with an extra 2MU of move then all bases of the LF BG that reach the BG being interpenetrated are moved through and the ones that don't reach with their normal move are left on the near side.

As I said earlier if the first case did not exist it would hardly change anything (I detailed a situation where it would change things earlier in the thread but it is very rare) and would cut a fair degree of confusion.

IMO it makes more difference than you think: The LF can over-penetrate a normal move + 2 MU. If they get a VMD of -2, they can still move a normal move +2 MU if necessary. Variable move is not a normal move. However, even this rarely makes a difference, so you are right in principle.

[sagji]

Second question from game tonight

I charged some LF which were 3 deep and they evaded through a BG of foot which were three deep.

All ranks reached the front of the heavies, but only two could get through and make their move + 2MU - the third would have required the other two to move more than this if it moved through.

The wording in the rule is normal move + 2 MU - i.e. there move without the benefit/penaly of the VMD

What should we have done?

1. Moved them through anyway - based on the second sub bullet on p48 which says - in all other cases.
2. Stopped the third rank at the front edge of the heavies.

We decided the words indicate option 1, but I have a nagging feeling we should have done 2 - else what is the first sub bullet for?

Thanks

Ian

All bases that reach pass through.
IF any bases don't reach then they don't pass through AND they are disordered while the BG remains split.

So option 1 is correct - and they aren't disordered.