What is the Worst Unit?

[Geffalrus]

Intrigued by the recent post about the new Syrian Spearman unit, I figured it might be fun to collect some peoples votes/thoughts on what are some of the worst units in the current game meta.

Rules of Engagement

- Worst does not mean weakest, because in that case, you could just pick Peasant Mob and be done with it.
- As we all know, unit capabilities are rather balanced, so even the Peasant Mob has some value in that it:
- 1) Has large unit size
- 2) Isn't overly hindered by terrain in terms of combat ability
- 3) Can still overpower light units through sheer mass
- 4) Costs only 15 points
- 5) Can flank infantry and cause that autodrop that we all know and love
- As such, worst is more about what units have the least useful combination of traits that make them unsuitable for their intended function.
- Additionally, we can also designate some units as "Dependent on Quantity"
- DoQ can mean that some units are terrible individually, but if the army can bring 5 or 10 or 15 or whatever of them, then suddenly they become much more effective.
- Conversely, DoQ can also mean that a unit could be worse if that is the majority unit you can bring, as some units aren't as effective when you have to buy them in bulk.

Personally, my own list of worst units is not as big as it once used to be, due in no small part to the fact that various patches and updates have addressed a number of cost-to-value issues that used to handicap certain units. Case in point would be the Dart legions of the Late Roman Army who used to be priced the same as impact foot, despite lacking equivalent offensive impact and cohesion penalty. They're still not exactly amazing units, but they at least have some cost efficiency backing them up now.

[Ray552]

SnuggleBunnies mentioned the 'Abid al-shira light spear heavy foot in that Syrian spearman thread.

Here's a thread from 2020 discussing them: "Anybody figured out how to use 'Abid al-shira?"

There were some opinions that they aren't objectively bad, but that they are at a relative disadvantage in melee against offensive and defensive spearmen.

The discussion then morphed into the age-old debate on Hellenistic pikes and their POAs

[Karvon]

Maybe scythe chariots? Kind of a novelty item. I've used them a few times with Persians. Most of the time they didn't do much more than be a distraction, but did really do wonders a time or two rolling up a flank.

[Rosedelio]

Sub-Roman Foot don't seem that great. Below Average means they don't get the cohesion bonus for being heavy foot, plus they're more vulnerable to Warband impact. Depending on the format, Swordsmen will make them struggle against any spear unit (though there's only the Pictish Spearmen in historical match-ups.) Light Spear also makes them vulnerable to lancer charges. The only thing they've got is their chunkyness.

[edb1815]

Sub-Roman Foot don't seem that great. Below Average means they don't get the cohesion bonus for being heavy foot, plus they're more vulnerable to Warband impact. Depending on the format, Swordsmen will make them struggle against any spear unit (though there's only the Pictish Spearmen in historical match-ups.) Light Spear also makes them vulnerable to lancer charges. The only thing they've got is their chunkyness.

Yes, this is a good one. Since they are HI they can't use rough terrain to their advantage either.

[SimonLancaster]

I made a few top tens of the worst units in all the periods. Off the top of my head, I really dislike Welsh Spearmen. I know the price has dropped from 50 to 47 but they are still really expensive for a medium foot unit that crumbles v heavy foot. Plus I think they are lightly protected.

I also dislike the fierce type of light horse. There are a few versions that cost 46 or something and that is overpriced for me.

Brigans are pretty poor because they are swordsmen and medium foot. They crumble v cavalry because of the lack of light spear.

Free Canton Spear also trash at 39…

[SnuggleBunnies]

I made a few top tens of the worst units in all the periods. Off the top of my head, I really dislike Welsh Spearmen. I know the price has dropped from 50 to 47 but they are still really expensive for a medium foot unit that crumbles v heavy foot. Plus I think they are lightly protected.

Them being 47 makes them situational, but agreed still not a great unit.

I also dislike the fierce type of light horse. There are a few versions that cost 46 or something and that is overpriced for me.

They are 44 now, and that makes them a considerably better buy. Worth bringing some in the lists that have them (Huns etc) because you need some light cavalry, and the Superior does make them more deadly at shooting.

Brigans are pretty poor because they are swordsmen and medium foot. They crumble v cavalry because of the lack of light spear.

Agreed, they suck. I'd rather have Irregular Foot in most situations, other than forest fighting.

Free Canton Spear also trash at 39…

Disagree. A list that relies on huge numbers of them is trash, but they are a valuable component of a balanced force that can get them. Note that they are identical to Thureophoroi, which are a steady unglamorous workhorse type unit, hardly 'trash.' What matters is the context of the army list they are in and the opponents they are fighting.

[SimonLancaster]

The army list with Free Canton Spear only has Free Canton Spear and is not balanced. No heavy foot as I recall. We agree then that that army list is trash. I haven’t actually seen other lists with this unit. There can’t be many. If you can just take a few then that might suffice. However, once you start saying this you are hardly relying on them.

[SnuggleBunnies]

The army list with Free Canton Spear only has Free Canton Spear and is not balanced. No heavy foot as I recall. We agree then that that army list is trash. I haven’t actually seen other lists with this unit. There can’t be many. If you can just take a few then that might suffice. However, once you start saying this you are hardly relying on them.

They were frequently and effectively fielded in the league in German lists, either as allies or integrally. The thread is about units, not lists. For example the Illyrian list is rather bad, but Thureophoroi are not.

[Geffalrus]

I probably should have specified that since this is in FoG2 Ancients, I was intending this to just be about pre-1066 units/armies since post 1066 adds in all sorts of things like Wagons, and Knights, and Keils, and slippery lancers, etc etc. We can still talk about Medieval units, but I do think that certain unit calculations change a bit......which is obviously why FoGM has some point recalculations.

Abd Al Shira - Yeah this is an obvious inclusion because while it's not inherently terrible, it also just doesn't serve too much of a purpose. It's heavy infantry with maneuver, which has always been a controversial thing since a lot of HI are just supposed to be big dumb blocks that occupy the middle of the map and anchor a battle line. Maneuver is often much better with Medium Foot who tend to be doing all the sneaky flanking shenanigans. This is not to say that Maneuver HI are - never - useful, as getting a quick flank with HI on MF (who get a cohesion penalty vs. HI) can be very effective. But in a world where 36 point Defensive Spears are just so good at being a big dumb line, and unless the AAS can bait the DS into attacking, the AAS just cost more, don't do too much more on average, and will lose in melee pretty constantly. They may not break super fast, but they will not be reliable holders, and they will almost never chew through anything frontally.

Scythe Chariots - Can a unit be the worst if it's intended to be bad?

Free Canton Spears - This is clearly a DoQ unit. If they're all you can bring, and you're facing knights, then you have to hide in terrain. However, if you bring them as a complement for your heavy army, then they can do quite well as Medieval lacks a lot of the power Medium units that Ancients have. I mean, they absolutely DUMPSTER the Brigands, will roll over Irregular Foot, and easily murder bowmen/crossbows/longbows. Medieval has a lot of weak and/or specialist medium foot that Canton Spears can effectively deal with.

Brigands - Terrible. Extremely situational use.

Sub-Roman Foot - I'd put them as DoQ solely because the armies that tend to have them, have them in bulk. So you can make something of a swarm army. But they're pretty bottom tier IMHO.

[SimonLancaster]

The army list with Free Canton Spear only has Free Canton Spear and is not balanced. No heavy foot as I recall. We agree then that that army list is trash. I haven’t actually seen other lists with this unit. There can’t be many. If you can just take a few then that might suffice. However, once you start saying this you are hardly relying on them.

They were frequently and effectively fielded in the league in German lists, either as allies or integrally. The thread is about units, not lists. For example the Illyrian list is rather bad, but Thureophoroi are not.

Right, and you were the one that mentioned lists when you said in a list with lots they are trash but in a list where you can use them in a balanced army they are okay. I didn’t mention lists in my original post.

I’d like to see the win rate for that Free Canton army!

[SnuggleBunnies]

I’d like to see the win rate for that Free Canton army!

No doubt terrible, it's a list that can draw more than it can win, much like Illyria.

[tyronec]

Here's my addition to the list, for what it is worth:

Scythe Chariots - The only truly bad unit that I can think of, thanks to all the recosting that has been done over the years.

Swiss pikes - Hard to get value out of them in MP as they can be neutralised by cheaper units - perhaps Harvey will disagree after a season of the TDC ! Of course in SP they are a great unit.

Irregular foot - With half swords and no armor they are going to lose in melee to just about every melee unit in the game, plus their half sisters Massed Greek/Thracian Peltasts and Brythonic Foot are not much better.

Limitanae - not nearly as useful for speed bumps as raw defensive spears.

Raw shieldwall - again, give me raw spears any day of the week. Will these guys ever hang around long enough to use their extra mass and who really wants to waste arrows shooting at them ?

Arab camelry - they kind of look nice in theory but they get shot up too easily and usually evade when they are wanted to stand and do their disorder thing, plus they get in the way and are a nuisance to their own cavalry. Most games they don't seem to pull their weight.

Veteran Italian Foot - 66 points is a lot for medium foot without a proper weapon, give me Veteran Samite Foot or Veteran Dailami any time.

Elephants in Medieval - far too many crossbows and guns around.

Assyrian half bow cavalry - I don't like these, the don't have enough firepower to cause cohesion tests on their own and get out shot by any full bow/missile opponents. But the killer is that they evade when charged by infantry and thus cannot be used to pin foot the way their Byzantine sisters with lances can. Fortunately the Assyrian foot are excellent so that kind of compensates.

and

Free Canton Spears - These are a great unit, the best value rough terrain troops in Northern Europe for that period of the game. Give me an army list that has a few of them over one that hasn't every time.

[Telesino]

Hello,
interesting list.

Scythe Chariots - The only truly bad unit that I can think of, thanks to all the recosting that has been done over the years.

Agree.

Swiss pikes - Hard to get value out of them in MP as they can be neutralised by cheaper units - perhaps Harvey will disagree after a season of the TDC ! Of course in SP they are a great unit.

I think they're a good shock troop on frontal fight

Irregular foot - With half swords and no armor they are going to lose in melee to just about every melee unit in the game, plus their half sisters Massed Greek/Thracian Peltasts and Brythonic Foot are not much better.

Sometimes, used with some more tough regiments, they're a good addiction in many situations.

Limitanae - not nearly as useful for speed bumps as raw defensive spears.

I hate also raw spears for the same reason.

Raw shieldwall - again, give me raw spears any day of the week. Will these guys ever hang around long enough to use their extra mass and who really wants to waste arrows shooting at them ?

Agree.

Arab camelry - they kind of look nice in theory but they get shot up too easily and usually evade when they are wanted to stand and do their disorder thing, plus they get in the way and are a nuisance to their own cavalry. Most games they don't seem to pull their weight.

The Achemenid list of Thymbra presents an armoured version, very powerful. Otherwise they can be an addiction against light and heavy cavalry, not medium.

[b]Veteran Italian Foot[/b] - 66 points is a lot for medium foot without a proper weapon, give me Veteran Samite Foot or Veteran Dailami any time.

66 points, yes, but sometimes it worth the cost.

Elephants in Medieval - far too many crossbows and guns around.

Terrifyingly wright.

Assyrian half bow cavalry - I don't like these, the don't have enough firepower to cause cohesion tests on their own and get out shot by any full bow/missile opponents. But the killer is that they evade when charged by infantry and thus cannot be used to pin foot the way their Byzantine sisters with lances can. Fortunately the Assyrian foot are excellent so that kind of compensates.

Absolutely not, with a combined attack of chariots and heavy cavalry they're a great as decoy and against the normal armoured cavalry.

and

Free Canton Spears - These are a great unit, the best value rough terrain troops in Northern Europe for that period of the game. Give me an army list that has a few of them over one that hasn't every time.[/i][/i]
[/quote]

[SimonLancaster]

I really like Irregular Foot. When you look at the stats v cavalry in the open that light spear really helps them out. For 36 they are a good buy. Better than Brigans and Baltic Levies as comparable units.

[Schweetness101]

I never really found warband to be worth the cost, although maybe they are a bit better now than they were a few years ago? cheaper perhaps? They can be ok as one or two units in an otherwise non-warband line to take a chance on dropping a mediocre enemy on impact, but the mostly warband armies I find tend to not be competitive. Masses of oversized, heavy foot, average, protected warband that are brittle, non-maneuverable, expensive and easily flanked.

[SnuggleBunnies]

I never really found warband to be worth the cost, although maybe they are a bit better now than they were a few years ago? cheaper perhaps? They can be ok as one or two units in an otherwise non-warband line to take a chance on dropping a mediocre enemy on impact, but the mostly warband armies I find tend to not be competitive. Masses of oversized, heavy foot, average, protected warband that are brittle, non-maneuverable, expensive and easily flanked.

Average Warbands have dropped in cost with the most recent patch from 58 to 55 FWIW

[SimonLancaster]

I think Warbands are a good shout as one of the worst units. Unpredictable and brittle. Loose Warband even worse, of course!

[MVP7]

I think most of the units in the games are worth it these days. I do prefer the pricing of Medieval units over Ancients but there are very few units in either game that are worth less than their cost in a meaningful way. Most of the time the question of whether some unit is over- or underpriced is just a matter of couple points. When looking at the affected army list(s) as a whole the matter of bad units usually boils down to whether you can upgrade a single unit or maybe pick one extra 24 point unit to your army. However, there are some units that I think significantly impact their army lists with their bad bang-for-the-buck ratio:

Pike Phalanx and Veteran Pike Phalanx benefitted from the recent balance changes and could perhaps be considered worth their cost based on their hard factors in a vacuum. However, I think their abysmal soft factors end up hindering every army lists where they are present in significant numbers. They are expensive but relatively low quality. The high cost also results in a small number of maneuvering units in the whole army. Small number of units together with their strong tendency to push and being unmaneuverable aggravate the fact that with pikemen you have an awful lot of eggs in one basket that still has the crippling vulnerability to flanking. Granted, you can turn them into a piece of terrain with the square formation but it's not very practical option with a small hard hitting shock army. Most armies relying on similarly expensive units tend to have more flexible and high veterancy force.

Legio Comitatensis are a units that pays premium for excessive defense capabilities and lukewarm offense. They cost 48 points, charge like a 30 point unit, fight in melee like a ~35 point unit, seemingly specialize in countering cavalry that won't exist for another 500 years, and are completely toothless against cavalry archers that they often face. The later Skoutatoi & Archers at 47 points are far more practical in passive anti-cavalry defense and otherwise you'd be better off with regular offensive spearmen. In most lists with these units it's hard to avoid taking a few even though their usual battlefield role could be covered by 35-40 point units if such units were available.

As a (dis)honorable mention: Light foot/horse with armor or veterancy are generally not at all worth the substantial extra cost. However, they are not usually available in numbers where it would really have much of an impact on the whole army.

[Geffalrus]

Glad to see some good additions!

Warbands - Very brittle as mentioned, and also not very maneuverable, so it's harder than with Samnite foot to get them into a flank position. I will say that they have a few virtues that make them not quite the worst. 1) They kind of ignore arrows......in the sense that their large size makes it harder for casualties to cause a cohesion test, and they take longer before casualties decrease their melee potential. 2) Their one turn pursuit can sometimes allow them to chain rout units, but takes some luck.

Pikes - Glad someone brought them up as they are way overcosted for their morale and thus ability to withstand cohesion challenges is subpar to say the least. I've written about pikes in the game before, so I won't rehash since a radical rework of pikes is not on the table. The one thing I've found with pikes is that I do enjoy using them en masse. If they can be used as a long line, you do limit their flank vulnerability and give you the time needed to crush your enemy frontally. 96 point pikes are both so expensive but also so much better simply because of how good superior morale is.

Comitatensis - Yup, skutatoi and archers are a thousand times better. I hate dart units in practice. They cost too much because they have maneuver, and no one has any incentive to charge you. I do wonder if dart infantry without maneuver and armor would be better?

Cretan Archers - I actually kinda like them because superior boosts literally everything they can do......but the cost is rough, and as light foot, they are hard countered by a lot of things.

Fancy Light Horse - Byzantine Flankers are expensive, but it is funny how little ranged fire does to them. They'd be a lot better in an army that ahem wasn't paying for dart infantry or hybrid lancers.......

Edit: Loose Warbands - Hard disagree. Yes, they are fragile in the open, but at least they can hide in rough and avoid those cohesion penalties. And they're kind of monstrous in rough terrain. Against most protected swords, they're going to eventually win the melee due to accumulated casualties. Against Thureos they might have a rough few melees before casualties start to even the POA out.