[Cheat][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Info]

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Horst
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
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[Cheat][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Info]

Post by Horst »

I hadn't really paid attention yet to the usual triggers in campaigns that reveal the neutral mines for the AI.
Then I noticed that these triggers are sometimes infinitely on turn starts with a radius of sometimes 3 for the reason of being lazy creating too many triggers for each mine.
That means that the AI can always detect what's in these zones.
No hiding possible, even for camouflaged units if the hidden option is checked!
I haven't checked all the campaigns yet, but Red Storm is a good example, like sov3_03_Kerch_Eltigen:
sov3_03_Kerch_Eltigen.jpg
sov3_03_Kerch_Eltigen.jpg (350.19 KiB) Viewed 801 times
All these landings zones where you have to struggle through are basically always revealed, same for the water hexes where the naval mines are.
That makes it quite easy for the AI to constantly find targets.

To whoever had this brilliant idea of trigger: revealing neutral mines once at scenario start is really enough, so the fog is back after the player's deployment phase.
I've tested this method on a map where the AI moved around a mine, so don't worry about the AI: it won't forget revealed structures and mines.
As each scenario has only one start, even an infinite trigger is only used once, therefore not much to fix there, but better remove any unnecessary infinity to save a bit performance.

It's a cool idea to create hills and mountains with triggered farsightedness if a unit is on top, but this is a kind of terrible cheating for the AI that makes players wonder why the heck their units were revealed and shelled by arty.
Keep this in mind if you play scenarios with mines!

Sooner or later, I'm going through all campaigns, check this out, make notes, and fix it where this serious issue is present.
I'll keep you informed in this topic then should someone else be interested in fixing it oneself too.
Last edited by Horst on Tue Jan 17, 2023 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bru888
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by bru888 »

Horst, it seems to me that this is more of a design issue than game bug. Would you mind if I moved this thread to Scenario Design? The reason is, I would like to keep the top of this forum clear for awhile so that the developers, if there are any, will notice topics that have import for the game itself ... such as DEVS, PLEASE CONSIDER: OoB v9.2.5 - Fixes & Tweaks!
- Bru
Horst
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by Horst »

Sorry, Bru, but I have to strictly disagree if you can even detect camouflaged units throughout all the turns of not only this scenario!
You put this map designer on a too high ladder that he doesn't deserve, as he has clearly failed here.
This is not the only map of course. Just look around in the Red Storm campaign and judge for yourself.
Most likey the same mapper also worked on the other two Red campaigns with the same occurance.
Like i mentioned, cool idea about hill- and mountaintops, but this is absolutely not the case here.
We don't have satellite view yet at this age, do we ? :evil:

Let this hang around here for a while until I serve you many more examples.
Last edited by Horst on Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bru888
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by bru888 »

Okay, you have certainly earned my respect for your wishes. I will periodically bump that other thread, though, to keep it near the top.
- Bru
Horst
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by Horst »

I rather want to finally play through the Red Storm campaign, so forgive me if I don't really want to spend so much time checking for bugs and fix them.
I basically play like this through original campaigns: check scenario, adjust it to my mod and fix some issues, play through it. Rinse and repeat. :(

Give me some time to play this game for a while! :lol:
Horst
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by Horst »

Red Storm, sov3_01_Prokhorovka: only one infinite+hidden mine reveal in the hinterland where the player most likely never moves to anyway
Red Storm, sov3_02_Rumyantsev: three hidden mine reveals even right at the front line. Almost funny that this one has frequency 5 instead of infinite. I don't get it... maybe mines with radar where the battery becomes too weak?
Red Storm, sov3_03_Kerch_Eltigen: six infinite+hidden mine reveals that I have already shown. Ouch. Nuff said.
Red Storm, sov3_04_Zhitomir: three infinite+hidden mine reveals, although not that tragic due defensive scenario nature
Red Storm, sov3_05_Korsun_Pocket: four infinite+hidden mine reveals, where the AI can make good use of it for defense. Now I know why my sniper got attacked by that mg foxhole.
Red Storm, sov3_06_Crimea: three infinite+hidden mine reveals, where one is useful for AI defense
Red Storm, sov3_07_Karelia44: four infinite+hidden mine reveals, where the AI can make good use of it, although the later ones can be neglected as the scenario is a joke anyway
Red Storm, sov3_08_Bagration: four infinite+hidden mine reveals, where all are quite useful for defending the settlements
Red Storm, sov3_09_Baltic44: six infinite+hidden mine reveals that useful for the AI
Red Storm, sov3_10_Debrecen: 6 i+h mr (it's getting boring) that already gives the AI advantage at the first river crossing
Red Storm, sov3_11_Vistula_Oder: 8, the king of mine reveals where it is actually triggered for 2 after turn 9. 6 are triggered 10 times.
... and so on for Red Storm.

I admit, in particular Vistula has shown that the scenario designer is actually unscrupulous enough to make the AI cheat on purpose, so it's no wrong trigger usage as I have ass-umed in more or less good faith.
Many people are weird, so no one knows for sure...
If no one cares about this, so be it. I do and don't want to play with such bullshit.
I rather enjoy fair play with the given rules of LoS and concealment in OoB, otherwise I could also play Panzer Corps again... wait, this map designer is from Panzer Corps, right? :D
Horst
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by Horst »

If you like to see the ultimate confusion here in the Red Storm Berlin scenario:
So the Rail bridges trigger handles the mine revealing once at scenario start. Hooray, it's correct (by mistake)!
And the infinite Ger reveal trigger lets all the bridges on the map blow up every turn.
Someone must have been really working overtime there.

Red Berlin.gif
Red Berlin.gif (525.3 KiB) Viewed 735 times
terminator
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by terminator »

Red Storm, sov3_08_Bagration : AI German planes bug (the German planes attack at the same time)
Red Storm, sov3_11_Vistula_Oder: Event bug (Volkssturm Event will never see the light)

If memory serves me well...
Horst
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by Horst »

I don't see anything wrong about the plane triggers.
I have also definitely gotten this Volkssturm event when I played this scenario lately. I remember the picture well.
event_vs.png
event_vs.png (195.33 KiB) Viewed 720 times
terminator
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by terminator »

terminator wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:16 pm Red Storm, sov3_08_Bagration : AI German planes bug (the German planes attack at the same time)
Red Storm, sov3_11_Vistula_Oder: Event bug (Volkssturm Event will never see the light)

If memory serves me well...
It seems to have been fixed since beta I don’t know when...
bebro
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by bebro »

I disagree with the OP completely. This is a design choice, not a bug, and yes, it is - particularly in the mentioned Kerch-Eltigen map - intentionally done to make the scn harder. Many things done in various scns are to help the AI in one way or the other, and this is one of them.

If people don't want to play a particular scn due to this it's fine, that's their choice, but I see absolutely no reason to change this.
Horst
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by Horst »

Next time add a sticker to your DLC advertisements:
Warning: AI is heavily cheating due inability of the game developers! Buy at your own risk!

This is not about a particular scenario. All three Soviet campaigns are pestered with that cheating!
I don't want to know how often this was done in other campaigns too.
Yeah, ignorance is strength.

Bebro, go and fix some horses! :roll:

Sorry, but I'm deeply disappointed by this! :(
bebro
Slitherine
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by bebro »

You disagreeing with it does not make it a bug, sorry.
Horst
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Re: [Mapper Bug][Campaign Scenarios][Reveal Mines for AI triggers][Serious!]

Post by Horst »

It's okay now, I revealed this as cheat now.
I'm going to rename the topic and let's be done with it.
I'd still like to keep this floating around as information reminder.
I don't think you really want this topic to be moved to the main forum either. :lol:
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