Underused/rated units

[Grondel]

i am currently thinking about units i rarely use, why that is and what would change it.

Things i came up with so far:
all 75mm towed arty pieces receive forced march
all 37mm towed AT pieces received force march and camouflage
StuGIIIB receives an AT mode
all heavy Weapon/Grenadier units receive MachineGun and Arty Support (maybe up prestige cost with this)
all jet planes have low altitude trait removed
BF110 type planes receive a fighter mode

please share ur thoughts on those and let me know about other units that are rarely used i missed so far.

sers,
Thomas

[Tassadar]

Some of this came as a topic for discussion with Stormchaser's Unit Toolbox Mod while it was brewed and indeed there is much room for adjustments to some unit classes that could make them more useful.

1. Light artillery (75mm) and light AT guns (1 slot ones) for sure deserve Forced March, it would make the much more useful. It would give light artillery decent options for fighting in hills and mountains as support and would increase the options for AT guns early war, which would allow them to get experience for later years. Maybe not much, but they could probably get to at least one star this way in the SCW/1939 years. Also, perhaps dedicated mountain guns could have the "Alpine" trait?
2. Unless the way AI keeps stumbling into Camouflage is reworked, giving it to anything is too powerful. Light AT guns could have the "Low Profile" trait instead, making them harder to remove.
3. StuG IIIB having an AT mode would be ok. It would not have to bee good at the stats, since 7.5 cm KwK 37 was nothing special even with AT rounds, but I see the benefit of assault guns in general always having the option to switch. I'd also argue for giving all smaller assault guns, tankettes and small AT such as the Hetzer low "Low Profile", and also adjust their stats. Especially the Hetzer is odd, as it has way too good stats, but also way too high of a slot cost.
4. Giving Grenadiers a trait like Rapid Fire 1.5x and Artillery Support seems interesting. Heavy infantry in general is underused since it has just 2 movement points and does not ignore entrenchment, so the improved stats are rarely that impressive. The issue here is that Rapid Fire 1.5x seems more logical for SMG infantry, while Artillery Support as in mortar fire, was not exclusive for heavy artillery. I would for starters finish the currently not working but listed in game files "Halftrack Support" hero for German Grenadiers and overall give all heavy artillery Aggressive Counterattack, seeing how it was mostly used defensively.
5. Not sure why we'd want to remove "Low Altitude Attack" from jet planes - they would still need to go low to strike ground targets and that's what the trait is about, so it works fine as it is.
6. The Bf 110 really does not want to be a fighter class plane, believe me. In the Bertorelli run with non-German Axis nations I have it in the Romanian air force as a fighter, since it for some reason got classed as it for this nation alone, and it means it's always in deep trouble. It cannot defend itself too well, so it really needs to be able to be supported by fighters. Since fighter planes do not supporting other fighters, this would be a serious nerf to the Bf 110.

Overall, the units file is overdue for some significant modifications and not as a mod, but by the dev team. I sincerely hope that with one of the major non-AO DLC such as Pacific Corps or maybe some of the allied DLC in the future this will be changed.

[Grondel]

Some of this came as a topic for discussion with Stormchaser's Unit Toolbox Mod while it was brewed and indeed there is much room for adjustments to some unit classes that could make them more useful.

1. Light artillery (75mm) and light AT guns (1 slot ones) for sure deserve Forced March, it would make the much more useful. It would give light artillery decent options for fighting in hills and mountains as support and would increase the options for AT guns early war, which would allow them to get experience for later years. Maybe not much, but they could probably get to at least one star this way in the SCW/1939 years. Also, perhaps dedicated mountain guns could have the "Alpine" trait?

Alpine not only enhances the move through hills/mountains but also adds +5 all damage and ignor entrench. don't want that on artillerie. not even on the light ones. i wanted to give the 75mm ones fast deployment but for unknown reasons that does not work as a unit trait.

2. Unless the way AI keeps stumbling into Camouflage is reworked, giving it to anything is too powerful. Light AT guns could have the "Low Profile" trait instead, making them harder to remove.

I just playtested preludes and 39 of the PC1 GC mod and it feels fine. I myself, also I know exactly where those little buggers are stumbled into 2 of them. Probably need to get used to it and be more sorrow wit the recons.
Same for the AI. If AI is provided with decend reconnage there is no stumbling.

3. StuG IIIB having an AT mode would be ok. It would not have to bee good at the stats, since 7.5 cm KwK 37 was nothing special even with AT rounds, but I see the benefit of assault guns in general always having the option to switch. I'd also argue for giving all smaller assault guns, tankettes and small AT such as the Hetzer low "Low Profile", and also adjust their stats. Especially the Hetzer is odd, as it has way too good stats, but also way too high of a slot cost.

haven't been using the hetzer at all so far. will take a look at it.

4. Giving Grenadiers a trait like Rapid Fire 1.5x and Artillery Support seems interesting. Heavy infantry in general is underused since it has just 2 movement points and does not ignore entrenchment, so the improved stats are rarely that impressive. The issue here is that Rapid Fire 1.5x seems more logical for SMG infantry, while Artillery Support as in mortar fire, was not exclusive for heavy artillery. I would for starters finish the currently not working but listed in game files "Halftrack Support" hero for German Grenadiers and overall give all heavy artillery Aggressive Counterattack, seeing how it was mostly used defensively.

i don't see why a SMG would be more logical here?^^
SMG average RPM is around 500-800 even for modern ones with 1 highflyer being the MAC 10 at 1200, which is very off in this category.
MG42 was at 1200-1500 RPM.
If SMG should get Maschine gun, maschine gunners would need quadrouple gun.

Halftrack support is not a hero, its what the Infantry gets when a halftrack is attached. Roughly +1 soft +4 hard attack if i remember correct. just take a look at the combat log when inf with halftrack has fought.

Agressive counterattack would only work if the Artillery itself was attacked. will have no effect on supportive fire.

5. Not sure why we'd want to remove "Low Altitude Attack" from jet planes - they would still need to go low to strike ground targets and that's what the trait is about, so it works fine as it is.

during WW2 Radar on AA guns was very rare to none existent. shooting at something with optical means that is alrdy gone before u can hear it is a very difficult feat.(I was among the last german soldiers trained to use the 20mm FlaK-Zwilling that was completely retired in the 90s)
If possible i would rework the low altitude feat to only work if the plane attacks a ground target. There is no reason why a AA gun should be able to hit a fighterplane not doing ground combat. Having AA guns fire at the closecombat rating of fighter planes during during their turns makes airfights or bomber escort above enemy territory extremly costly.
Maybe i'll have the fighter planes gain some close deff rating to compensate this.

6. The Bf 110 really does not want to be a fighter class plane, believe me. In the Bertorelli run with non-German Axis nations I have it in the Romanian air force as a fighter, since it for some reason got classed as it for this nation alone, and it means it's always in deep trouble. It cannot defend itself too well, so it really needs to be able to be supported by fighters. Since fighter planes do not supporting other fighters, this would be a serious nerf to the Bf 110.

The heavy fighters are not build for dogfights with other fighters, they have been build to hunt and kill strategic bombers. Thats why they have a very high air-attack rating due to heavy weaponry and caused by the same heavy weaponry a very low initiative. They need to hit hard not fast to kill enemy bombers.

Overall, the units file is overdue for some significant modifications and not as a mod, but by the dev team. I sincerely hope that with one of the major non-AO DLC such as Pacific Corps or maybe some of the allied DLC in the future this will be changed.

i doubt this will happen in the extend we would want it to happen.

sers,
Thomas

[robman]

It would be great if fast deployment were a unit trait for small towed guns. On the other hand (now that I think about it), the same logic would apply to infantry units, with the likely exception of bridge engineers. Forced march for small guns might be a reasonable middle ground.

[robman]

In terms of units I rarely use, the one that surprises me most is the 88. I think it should be a 2-slot unit. At three slots, it competes with SP AT guns and AT hero tanks in the AT role, and with three (!) 2 cm guns in the AA role.

[Tassadar]

Alpine not only enhances the move through hills/mountains but also adds +5 all damage and ignor entrench. don't want that on artillerie. not even on the light ones. i wanted to give the 75mm ones fast deployment but for unknown reasons that does not work as a unit trait.

Forgot about the entrenchment thing. Attack and defense bonuses given terrible base stats would be ok, but that extra ability is indeed too much.

haven't been using the hetzer at all so far. will take a look at it.

It's mostly a jab at the probably biggest difference between historical stats and actual in-game ones.

i don't see why a SMG would be more logical here?^^
SMG average RPM is around 500-800 even for modern ones with 1 highflyer being the MAC 10 at 1200, which is very off in this category.
MG42 was at 1200-1500 RPM.
If SMG should get Maschine gun, maschine gunners would need quadrouple gun.

I'm probably thinking about it as a more of the issue of applying the machine guns offensively, whereas they are better on defense, but I guess it would not overly break heavy infantry. Rapid Fire 2x on anything without special heroes that is not light AA guns is overkill however.

Halftrack support is not a hero, its what the Infantry gets when a halftrack is attached. Roughly +1 soft +4 hard attack if i remember correct. just take a look at the combat log when inf with halftrack has fought.

I learn all th etime then. I never noticed it works like this.

Agressive counterattack would only work if the Artillery itself was attacked. will have no effect on supportive fire.

Yes, my intention is that only the infantry itself would be better at defending itself alone.

The heavy fighters are not build for dogfights with other fighters, they have been build to hunt and kill strategic bombers. Thats why they have a very high air-attack rating due to heavy weaponry and caused by the same heavy weaponry a very low initiative. They need to hit hard not fast to kill enemy bombers.

I would give a pass to this if there were specific night fighters/anti-bomber role fighters. Then only some specific Bf 110 models could make the cut. Wondering how this could work however. There is a unused "All Weather Combat" ability/hero, it probably could work as the night fighter ability of all radar-equipped special units.

[Grondel]

In terms of units I rarely use, the one that surprises me most is the 88. I think it should be a 2-slot unit. At three slots, it competes with SP AT guns and AT hero tanks in the AT role, and with three (!) 2 cm guns in the AA role.

i agree on that 8.8. i rarely if ever use it. when it comes to AA 3x 2cm or FlakVierling are way better to keep of the bombers and strategics do not cause damage and fighters will deal with them.

when it comes to AT i sometimes use 1 or 2 but as soon as Marder shows up 8.8 is obsolete.

2 Slots might be a solution.
What i really would love to do is give a artillerie mode to the 8.8.

I will test and see if i can pull this off.
8.8 AA gun can switch to 8.8 AT gun
8.8 AT gun can switch to 8.8 Artillerie
8.8 Artillerie can switch to 8.8 AA gun

In theorie this should be possible. i'll let u know if this works. This would def give the 8.8 the unique role it deserves.

sers,
Thomas

[Grondel]

I will test and see if i can pull this off.
8.8 AA gun can switch to 8.8 AT gun
8.8 AT gun can switch to 8.8 Artillerie
8.8 Artillerie can switch to 8.8 AA gun

In theorie this should be possible. i'll let u know if this works. This would def give the 8.8 the unique role it deserves.

sers,
Thomas

Yep works fine. I choose the soft rating of a 10cm and the hard attack of a 15cm for now. any thoughts on this welcome.

sers,
Thomas

[Grondel]

In terms of units I rarely use, the one that surprises me most is the 88. I think it should be a 2-slot unit. At three slots, it competes with SP AT guns and AT hero tanks in the AT role, and with three (!) 2 cm guns in the AA role.

that 8.8 hint gave me a hint as to how i could solve the fighter plane issue with low alt. thx for that.

sers,
Thomas

[adiekmann]

i am currently thinking about units i rarely use, why that is and what would change it.

Things i came up with so far:
all 75mm towed arty pieces receive forced march
all 37mm towed AT pieces received force march and camouflage
StuGIIIB receives an AT mode
all heavy Weapon/Grenadier units receive MachineGun and Arty Support (maybe up prestige cost with this)
all jet planes have low altitude trait removed
BF110 type planes receive a fighter mode

please share ur thoughts on those and let me know about other units that are rarely used i missed so far.

sers,
Thomas

Interesting, because I DO USE most of those units regularly. Some of it is because I always insist on a largely historical composition of my Panzer Corps.

75mm artillery not so much, but I have used it situationally, like air transporting it to Crete to provide some art support for my Fallschirmjägers. However, this is rare and usually just rely on strong air support, but I did it once and landed it on one of the supply hexes where I promptly updated it with organic transportation and, of course, it had good heroes (Elsa Kloss, camo, Lethal) to make it useful.

I use the 3.7 cm PaK a lot in Spain, and less so afterwards until the Panzerjäger I becomes available. It, like the vastly more useful 5 cm PaK, already have 2 movement which makes me keep it as my main AT until '42. 6 rounds of ammo and a double support hero means it can get 2 shots off per support fire and do real damage.

I love using the StuG IIIB and it's greatly improved upgrades afterwards. Needs the right heroes on it though to work effectively - camouflage, lethal, double support... Again, 6 rounds of ammo and it deals great damage and collects experience quickly just like it did in PC1. On its own, yes, it is weak. But it also costs only 4 slots when OS to 15.

I have been in the camp that has complained about the differences - or lack thereof - between all infantry unit types and nations since the game's release three years ago. I overall liked it better in PC1 where all regular infantry did not have the same exact stats regardless of nation. So, yes, a boost to Grenadiers for instance would be one example. I like your suggestions plus should probably cost an extra slot then too.

Not had an issue with jet fighters. I try to avoid operating in areas of enemy AA guns in the first place unless I am directly attacking them with Strat bombers with lethal and double attack. But then again, I prefer to use ground units to take them out.

The reason the Bf 110 has limited usefulness is because it largely did suck. There's no getting around it. It remained in service because it was adapted to night fighter and ground support roles but even here it wasn't as good as some British aircraft like the Mosquito and the Beaufighter.

A great deal of what I said above, you'll notice, depends on what heroes I have to maximize its usefulness. I have thought about units that I don't use and can't really think of any. Those that come to mind are because better versions are available. That is true with many class of units. In PC1 it was Recon which was successfully addressed in this game, but a lot comes down to how you play and what heroes and available slots you have.

[Sequester Grundleplith, MD]

There are a ton of mid-war AT units that I never really use, because their stats are all basically the same. Not sure what to do to make their use more appealing; maybe "low profile" on the stugs and higher movement for the marders?

[RVallant]

I use the 3.7 cm PaK a lot in Spain, and less so afterwards until the Panzerjäger I becomes available. It, like the vastly more useful 5 cm PaK, already have 2 movement which makes me keep it as my main AT until '42. 6 rounds of ammo and a double support hero means it can get 2 shots off per support fire and do real damage.

I think all the towed pieces are even better if you take General Trait Aggressive Deployment.

In fact, with that trait, I'm sticking to the towed variants longer than switching to the SP variants simply because the movement of wagon/trucks is plentiful.

I think they really fixed up AT's in 2.

[Thunderhog]

Giving the 75mm's Alpine would be awesome. The Alpine 75's in some Panzer Corps 1 mods really give them usefulness when fighting in Italy, Norway, and other areas.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

Maybe give all fighter and fighter-bombers a switch between air and ground attack mode, where only ground attack mode has Low Altitude Attack and AG value, but reduced Initiative and AA value? That should at least partly solve the AA killing fighters doing air battles problem.
Bf 110 (and its successor Me 410) really needs an fighter mode as it also works as the only long range fighter of Germany when it comes to escorting the same long range bombers (well, I know those are not actually "long ranged" historically...). Same applies to the Bf 109 Z. And I think we also need to adjust the status of German strategical bombers as I just couldn't find a reason to use captured foreign ones, they have far more better status to what other countries, mainly the UK and US, have got in the game.

Some more thoughts:
Armoured Trains should have Arty and AT support, or at least Arty one.
Gift units (special ones) should have No Overstrength built in (not sure if that one actually works as unit trait) since they are rare prototypes Panzer IIA, Verdeja 2, Panther(P)... Does not include things like the Il-2 in Warsaw and S35 in Saarbrucken as that would require a new line and changing the script itself to the new one instead of the regular unit also used by that nation.
Multi-turret and multi-gun tanks should all get Rapid Fire 1.5x but have the status reduced, including T-28, Char B1, Char 2C and the M3 Grant/Lee to line up with the Neubaufahrzeug.

[Grondel]

Maybe give all fighter and fighter-bombers a switch between air and ground attack mode,...

thats what i did, all fighters will have a air only mode where thex do not have low altitude trade and cannot attack ground targets.

Some more thoughts:
Armoured Trains should have Arty and AT support, or at least Arty one.

those trains are one of those units i do not use at all. the longrange ones are fine but the Armoured train is kinda useless.
Thinking about trying to create an AA version, that might a thing. but 3 range artillerie bound to rail is kinda meh sinmce defending rails is not a thing in PC2.

Gift units (special ones) should have No Overstrength built in (not sure if that one actually works as unit trait) since they are rare prototypes Panzer IIA, Verdeja 2, Panther(P)... Does not include things like the Il-2 in Warsaw and S35 in Saarbrucken as that would require a new line and changing the script itself to the new one instead of the regular unit also used by that nation.

This can easily be done, but might produce some outrage. let's get more feedback on this.

Multi-turret and multi-gun tanks should all get Rapid Fire 1.5x but have the status reduced, including T-28, Char B1, Char 2C and the M3 Grant/Lee to line up with the Neubaufahrzeug.

by status ur are talking about hard/soft attack rating?

sers,
Thomas

[Sequester Grundleplith, MD]

If the Verdeja was no over strength I would never use it. Its strength is that it's only 2 slots, so natural 11 and 15 for only four slots.

Same with most other prototypes-- over strength is so powerful (esp for tanks) that no over strength would make any gift unit pointless for me, outside of "no over strength for everything" runs

[cutydt02]

About infantry, i think most of them are really balance between cost/effective. Pioneers for offensive, Grenadiers for defense point, Fallschirmjagers and Gebirgjagers are completely OP in some but irrelevant in some, regular one for the mixed purposes.

Tanks are very same, i must use some weaker one for the slots of best one.
All the rest of "smaller" weapons seem as balance, they take less slot as well. Just give 7.5cm arty a movement point is enough, they take only 1/2 slots than 15cm and 1/3 than 21cm. Just build them more, and with bonuses from high ground, they sure become king of mountain by sheer number.

Giving large caliber guns the anti-tank support trait is the best way to remove anti-tank gun from the game. Lesser than 5cm towed AT should have one more movement point or at least force march. Fast Deployment will completely overshadow mechanized one.
All mechanized one are seeming really useless to me, too. I better field a 15cm arty in defesive position unless having camouflage. Other than that, tanks are much superior by steamroller and can deal with infantry. AT heroes even make the situation even worse when i dont need much AT support to protect a tank formation.

AA problem is the very same. a 88 = 3x 2cm is a fact but i rarely feel that battlefield has much room to field so many, not to say the high ground. And especially i dont have so many Fast deployment/Camouflage heroes for them. In short, love the 88, savior of Luftwaffe.

Bf110s/410 are good interceptors so ability to dogfight is must-have.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

Multi-turret and multi-gun tanks should all get Rapid Fire 1.5x but have the status reduced, including T-28, Char B1, Char 2C and the M3 Grant/Lee to line up with the Neubaufahrzeug.

by status ur are talking about hard/soft attack rating?

Yep, hard and soft attack rating. Of course this does not reflects the real armament perfectly as we all know attack ratings in this game also works as the "penetration" of a unit, but I think at least this would make multi-gunned tanks special enough to stand out.

As for the armoured train, it's purely because I want them to act really as "artillery" and as an option of group center when you have to form a defensive line. Besides the movement restriction, there is no difference between a towed gun or SPG and an armoured train, they are in a support role. Neither do I ever used them besides the scenario you get them, but at least this could give them some value to be deployed when we have a suitable situation. AA train does sounds like an interesting option, and I think we can also have a "tank train", those with direct fire weapons and move AT support on that one. Of course it needs range due to range 0 weapon requires the unit being capable of moving into the terrain its target is in.

[88Flak]

Can’t believe the 88’s would make this list. I find them to be some of the best units especially early to mid war.

I always try to have 2 and have a goal of fast deployment on both, camouflage on 1 and double attack on the other. They are devastating to allied tanks and really even up the score when fighting some of the heavier allied tanks early in the war.

When a particularly strong allied heavy tank appears, I have a recon poke its nose out and back it up with the camouflaged 88. It’s irresistible catnip. Then I can finish it off with a panzer.

I can also set them to keep some of the allied aircraft off of me, obviously they do much better at this after they earn a couple stars. I also use them offensively in AA mode to weaken the best enemy fighters so mine can finish them off and get air superiority as early as possible.

They SHOULD have an artillery mode, I’d love to have that option. Just make sure to always protect them from enemy infantry.

[Grondel]

update:
all 75mm towed arty pieces received forced march
all 37mm towed AT pieces received forced march and camouflage
StuGIIIB recieved an AT mode
all heavy Weapon/Grenadier units received MachineGun and Arty Support, core slots equal to engineers
all jet planes have low altitude trait removed
some planes have enhanced move range(this is due to reworked maps in 39, the maps are 4x bigger than before. I will do this for all campaigns 1 at a time)
BF110 planes received fighter mode and hit and run. (BF110 have init 2 and all startegics have init 1 while fighters all have way higher initiative. Thus HitandRun will only work against strategics, representing the "schräge Musik"(a special way of fitting the gun to the plane) used by the nightfighters.)
8.8 recieved a artillerie mode, unit will switch from AA to AT to Arty and back to AA, known issue: in arty mode the 8.8 will not be able to use its attached transport(it will be shown as possible move but won't work. fixing this is beyond what can be modded. If u want to move the 8.8 after firing in artillerie mode more than 1 hex u need to manually switch to transport(left side of the screen) and deplyoment into artillerie mode is not possible.)
Fighterplanes received highaltitude mode. In this mode they cannot attack ground targets and have low altitude trait removed.

very unhappy about the glitch with the 8.8 artillerie mode, but the 8.8 has a animation for artillerie. guess this was planned at some point during developement and dropped.