(Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

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gf85
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(Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by gf85 »

First of all when I say "reasonable" I just mean it under the setting of AO44. TBH the alt history path itself is ridiculous enough. But let say we accept the beginning set up of AO44, the development that followed is in fact quite reasonable.

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First look at the frontline at the end of AO43. According to the plot, German troops were barred from any attempt to attack Stalingrad again. While we the players have achieved great victories in the Caucasus area, it didn't mean the southern front is in good shape. The front line is extremely long and the mountainous terrain of the Caucasus area means occupation of this area very difficult. In the south there are British-occupied Persia, even though we have defeated them in operation corridor and managed a successful raid in Tehran region, it will not stop the allies there forever. Hence a huge force was needed to secure the area.

And secure it must be. Afterall the whole point of the Caucasus campagin is to capture this oil rich area to fuel German's war machine. Oil facilities and pipelines are vulnerable and obvious targets that must be protected by enough garrison, heavy AA and even Luftwaffe against partisan, Allies air raids and potential Allies counter offensive from Persia. Losing Caucasus oil fields or letting them be destroyed is politically and militarily unacceptable.

Simply put, Caucasus was a huge resource drain. So it is not difficult to imagine that OKH has to scrape all available resources from AGN and AGC to secure Caucasus.

On the other hand, without securing Stalingrad, it is impossible for Germans to start any offensive from the south to the heartland of Russia. The poor infrastructure in Volgograd and Voronezh regions didn't help too. So for the Soviets, with interior lines advantages, they can keep much fewer troops in the southern front and redirect their focus elsewhere.

With the Western Allies failure on D-day, they must have to shift their focus elsewhere. Attempting to land in Western Europe again is not a good idea, at least for now. Their first priority is to resupply the Soviets to keep them in fighting shape. Without major land operation in Western Europe (Italian front is not a good theatre for major breakthroughs due to geographic restriction), the Allies can put more naval asset in escorting the Arctic lend-lease route and provide more land supplies to the Soviets, to compensate for the loss of Persian route.

Putting these pieces together it now makes sense to me why after all German's triumph in the Southern front, the Soviets decided their first move was to knock Finland out of war and start major offensive in the north. With interior lines advantages they can concentrate their force in one front while the Germans have been stretched extremely thin. An offensive in the North can be well supplied by Allies lend-lease resource. Knocking Finland out of war and lifting the siege of Leningrad provided a morale boost that the Soviets desperately needed.

The follow-up grand plan of attacking Hungary and Romania to cut Caucasus off from mainland is a little bit ridiculous though... The scale of such an operation is too huge to be well executed. But still, I love how things developed in AO44, it is not an alt history scenario that I usually read/see, I appreciate the creativity and thought in the plot. Can't wait more for AO45. :D
Wagner0445
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by Wagner0445 »

gf85 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:58 am
First look at the frontline at the end of AO43. According to the plot, German troops were barred from any attempt to attack Stalingrad again. While we the players have achieved great victories in the Caucasus area, it didn't mean the southern front is in good shape. The front line is extremely long and the mountainous terrain of the Caucasus area means occupation of this area very difficult. In the south there are British-occupied Persia, even though we have defeated them in operation corridor and managed a successful raid in Tehran region, it will not stop the allies there forever. Hence a huge force was needed to secure the area.

On the other hand, without securing Stalingrad, it is impossible for Germans to start any offensive from the south to the heartland of Russia. The poor infrastructure in Volgograd and Voronezh regions didn't help too. So for the Soviets, with interior lines advantages, they can keep much fewer troops in the southern front and redirect their focus elsewhere.

The follow-up grand plan of attacking Hungary and Romania to cut Caucasus off from mainland is a little bit ridiculous though... The scale of such an operation is too huge to be well executed. But still, I love how things developed in AO44, it is not an alt history scenario that I usually read/see, I appreciate the creativity and thought in the plot. Can't wait more for AO45. :D
Well first off I must disagree. It's one of the most historically realistic ahistoric scenarios I have seen.
The Caucasus was the main Oil production place for the Soviets with 85% of it coming from there. So alone the fact that the soviets cant use that oil anymore would cripple the soviet war machine massively.

Secondly, the Caucasus was in an even worse situation than Ukraine or the Baltics. Partisan activity won't be as huge as many would have thought. Also thanks to it being mostly just barren hills and deserts it takes quite fewer resources to occupy and garrison compared to other parts of the german conquest. Also, the south is a pretty horrible terrain combined with the horrible logistics of Persia it is unlikely that they would need a big defending force there.

Next up is Stalingrad. It's irrelevant. Hobby Historians want to give Stalingrad so much importance because of its name and the huge battle that took place there. In reality, the Wehrmacht could have comfortably ignored Stalingrad. Quite a few plans did include Stalingrad as a target for destruction and not conquest. Make Stalingrad unusable to the Enemy. Which the fighting of 1942 and the raid of your troops in 1943 did. So no big threat is going out from Stalingrad and in itself, it is a horrible starting point for an offensive north.

Also what you have to look at is the Manpower situation. Germany lost 1 if not 2 million fewer troops in the years 1942/43/44 in the alternative timeline. While the soviets suffered quite more Casualties. Operation Roland. the Kursk pocket, the German successful defense after Kursk, the destruction of the Soviet Offensive Army at Rostov, and the troops who ended up trapped and destroyed in the Caucasus.
In our Timeline, the Soviet Union used up all of its regular manpower in 1945. And that was the Soviet Union which controlled 100% of its own territory. The Soviets Recruited 3mio Ukrainians between 1943 and 1944 in our timeline. Now just imagine how that situation must be for the Soviet Union in the alternative Timeline.

And that the Soviets use the Initiative in the Center and north to get large parts of its territory back is quite realistic.

So as you see the starting point for 1944 and the events of the alternative Timeline are quite reasonable(Much more reasonable than the games which let you win the war just because you captured Moscow and Stalingrad).


So let's look at the Actions of 1944.
With the failed D-Day the allied will keep out of Europe for quite some time. Losing Invasions is a moral hit that is hard to stomach by soldiers and civilians.

Your Idea about more Landlease from the North is a nice idea but with a supplied Germany not so realistic. With the oil and other resources, Germany could massively increase its bombing of said convoys.

The Soviet Plan to draw Hungary and Romania onto their side and to cut the Caucasus off wasn't so stupid. Both of those countries are Germany's last still working allies and quite important. Romania and Hungary both had militaries of over 1 Mio soldiers. Also without Romanian and Hungarian Oil and the Oil from the Caucasus, the German War Machine would have crumbled quickly.
So why didn't the Soviets Continue their drive west instead of directing their initiative against the mountains and betting their success on two coups?
Manpower.
The Germans did draw back behind Rivers and other natural borders fortifying them. So with their tanks still operational and the Luftwaffe defending them, it would have been hard to impossible to break through the german lines and would have cost more troops than the soviets have. So going south was the only possible way.

And with the Wehrmacht managing to encircle and destroy the soviet spearhead, it is pretty likely that the Soviets are completely out of reserves now. With an encirclement of the Soviet salient in Romania, like Fuchs already foreshadowed it can be said that the Soviets are at the end.
dalfrede
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by dalfrede »

The Allies invaded Southern France in 1944 to little opposition in real life.
They could do it in just as well. The fight to Germany would be longer than history, but not impossible.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.
88Flak
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by 88Flak »

Ah, a post based on pure what if speculation. 8)

The military, economic and logistic situation at the end of 43NH would probably dictate Stalin’s strategy.

The loss of so much of their petro would have forced their hand. They would be looking at extreme rationing just to keep all those factories they moved east operating and producing war material. The main overland route for lend lease would be cut off further exacerbating the situation. Any German commander worth his salt would try to find a way to cut the Murmansk path as well to put the Soviets in a completely desperate situation.

It would probably have taken the Germans months if not years to repair all the scorched earth done to the oil fields, but they could get some production while cutting off the Soviets from their lifeline. That would not only impact the fuel supplies to the front lines, but more would be available for the German economy and for training purposes. That might allow a less shattered Wehrmacht to rebuild itself and maybe even better equip their Hungarian and Romanian allies.

I think an all our effort to reclaim the Caucauses would be undertaken. Probably driving at Rostov in the first phase to cut off German armies. The destruction of Stalingrad would make this more difficult so the main axis may have to come from further north.

The Brits/Yanks would have definitely launched an offensive operation from Persia to support. It would have been pretty effective early, but look at how far away Persia is from UK/American supply sources. The logistics for an operation large enough to make a difference would have been unbelievably difficult.

There would be some time before the shortages really hampered offensive operations so I think it likely that 1944 would have been an all out attempt by the allies to reclaim the initiative. It might have resulted a huge and desperate Allied counter attack with the Germans on the defensive early, but looking for opportunities to cutoff advancing armies by launching their own attacks (in true Prussian style).
Wagner0445
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by Wagner0445 »

dalfrede wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:04 pm The Allies invaded Southern France in 1944 to little opposition in real life.
They could do it in just as well. The fight to Germany would be longer than history, but not impossible.
Well, moral is a thing. So Allied Highcommand would be reluctant to greenlight a second invasion against Germany in 1944. Most likely the allied command wants to wait for the Soviets to succeed in their offensive before risking even more men and material and political will for a second invasion.
Wagner0445
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by Wagner0445 »

88Flak wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:43 pm It would probably have taken the Germans months if not years to repair all the scorched earth done to the oil fields, but they could get some production while cutting off the Soviets from their lifeline. That would not only impact the fuel supplies to the front lines, but more would be available for the German economy and for training purposes. That might allow a less shattered Wehrmacht to rebuild itself and maybe even better equip their Hungarian and Romanian allies.
Well, the whole Idea about the 1943 offensive was to be quick enough to prevent large-scale sabotage.
Also with the hatred of the Caucasus population for Stalin sabotage would have only happened in small quantities.

Also, the germans already succeeded in 1942 in Airdropping troops to secure the oil plants and refineries. Troops who only had to retreat after the german army failed to connect to them. So it would be logical if the Germans would have done that a second time in 1943 while the majority of the Soviet eyes were on the Moscow offensive

Also, Hasan Israilov(who worked together with Germany) existed who had 5000 Guerilla fighters and over 25.000 supporters which would massively hamper the soviet scorched earth policy.

There is a reason why the soviets killed between 100.000 and 400.000 Chechens in 1944 in a genocide/deportation operation.
gf85
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by gf85 »

It's difficult to truly evaluate every aspect of the scenario, after all, it's alt-history. There are no actual numbers or statistics to make any serious evaluation. It's just fun to share some thoughts and see what's other players take on the scenario. :D
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by Kerensky »

gf85 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:58 am
The follow-up grand plan of attacking Hungary and Romania to cut Caucasus off from mainland is a little bit ridiculous though... The scale of such an operation is too huge to be well executed.
If it is too huge an operation to be well executed... is that partly why it ultimately failed? :shock:
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by Retributarr »

Kerensky wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:23 am
gf85 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:58 am
The follow-up grand plan of attacking Hungary and Romania to cut Caucasus off from mainland is a little bit ridiculous though... The scale of such an operation is too huge to be well executed.
If it is too huge an operation to be well executed... is that partly why it ultimately failed? :shock:
Regarding your statement "Kerensky"... i would like to try to make a comparison for it with currently a lack of the full-details... as i haven't studied this situation in a very-long-time.

"Alexander the Great" when he ventured forth to take-out the 'Persian Empire! _ the Persian-King!'... at the time when he was just crossing or had already crossed the 'Granicus-River' into east-asia to confront his adversary... he was vastly outnumbered by the Persian Hordes... with odds of something like at least' 5 to 1 or more. Sooo!... He sent all of his 'Cavalry' to vector directly onto and at the Persian Kings position... to take him out... and incredibly... he did just exactly that!. Shortly thereafter... the Persians began to 'Route' and were routed.

So!... even if this operation... "is too huge an operation to be well executed"... the unexpected finding of a weak-point or vulnerability is what is needed to make the impossible... Possible!.

Napoleone' Bonaparte... as well as Rommel were great for being able to do this kind of thing!, so!... its really not-impossible or impracticable!.
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by cutydt02 »

Let forget ahistorical route of 40-41 bcoz if German can manage to raid London or Moscow, there’s nothing much to say.

Start with 42 AO, operation Blue ended up with total capturing of Caucasus and Stalingrad. Else even with the successful of operation Winter Storm, German still suffered tactical failure and must retreat from Caucasus. Therefore nothing changed in starting of 1942, shattered 6th army even escape but no longer existed as effective force for year.

Either way, AO 1943 ahistorical still started with grand offensive of Soviet army and concentrated massive force in Central Army (if Stalingrad taken, there’s no avaiable way to counter offense this front). Or even another try to relief Leningrad ? Anyway, they can still manage to get Kharkov and Kursk from the north east, in my theory to let player keep the achivements from AO42 while keeping famous historical battles. Ofc with the cost of the whole Central Front.

After 3rd battle of Kharkov and the complete of Operation Citadel. AO44 ahistorical should have 3 options for 3 Army Group. Leningrad in the North. Orel/Tula Axis at the central (Barbarossa 2) and To the Ural/Middle East for the South army. However, operation Bagration and Overlord would bog German down in the door of Moscow before another winter, no matter how decisive they got.

Ao45 is out of content for me. Its complete unrealistic to force England surrender by V1-2-3 or by landing, RN was still far superior compared to Germans. Atomic war ? Race to India/China after USSR signed armistice ? Not so interesting
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Re: (Spoiler Alert) How things developed in AO44 Alternate history path is amazingly reasonable

Post by Wagner0445 »

cutydt02 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:19 am Ao45 is out of content for me. Its complete unrealistic to force England surrender by V1-2-3 or by landing, RN was still far superior compared to Germans. Atomic war ? Race to India/China after USSR signed armistice ? Not so interesting
Most likely we will defeat the Russians they are out of manpower and then throw the allies out of Europe. With the allies making peace with Germany.

Invasion of England will most likely never happen or it will happen in a 1946 dlc.
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