Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

[PeterThePainter]

I don't recall whether any particular side should set the battle up, anyway I have posted Blore Heath for edb1815.

pw 1459

Long Live King Henry!

[Karvon]

I don't recall whether any particular side should set the battle up, anyway I have posted Blore Heath for edb1815.

pw 1459

Long Live King Henry!

Always good idea to send your opponent a PM - if you haven't - as well, in case they aren't checking forum regularly.

[PeterThePainter]

I don't recall whether any particular side should set the battle up, anyway I have posted Blore Heath for edb1815.

pw 1459

Long Live King Henry!

Always good idea to send your opponent a PM - if you haven't - as well, in case they aren't checking forum regularly.

Thanks for the heads up. Done.

[PeterThePainter]

The Battle of Blore Heath has commenced. Humphrey Stafford, the Duke of Buckingham is the C in C, in amongst the cavalry on the Lancastrian right. The sub - general is Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland, the commander marked amongst the infantry.

[stockwellpete]

Everyone be sure to understand the pursuit rules in the campaign. For most scenarios (not Blore Heath or Ferrybridge) your light horse units are the key ones. Do not waste them. Capturing and executing enemy royals and nobles is a key part of the campaign.

[PeterThePainter]

One for Stockwell Pete:

Having seen the Snuggles video I understand the reason for keeping the Lancastrian cavalry attacking the Yorkist left wing at Blore Heath. However, did you really have to have the second rank advance and hold the first rank in melee?

It seems an awful waste of cavalry and we will see so little of it in these battles. If the second rank stay back on turn 2 presumably the first rank will fall back and after another volley of arrows have hit them, charge again for impact effect (if they haven't been disrupted or worse). Perhaps this an attempt to illustrate the fact that the British cavalry is invariably headstrong (those endlessly pursuing Cavaliers, the Scots Greys at Waterloo, the Light Brigade at Balaklava)?

[edb1815]

Yorkist commanders for Blore Heath: CinC The Earl of Salisbury and sub commander is the Marquess of Montagu. Essentially the historical commanders at the battle

As I understand it the initial cavalry charge was a reaction to a feigned retreat by Salisbury and that is what the AI is simulating. The Yorkist longbowmen have commenced firing on the cavalry struggling in the marshy brook.

[stockwellpete]

As I understand it the initial cavalry charge was a reaction to a feigned retreat by Salisbury and that is what the AI is simulating. The Yorkist longbowmen have commenced firing on the cavalry struggling in the marshy brook.

Yes, that's it. What was happening in earlier versions of the scenario was that players were immediately pulling the cavalry out of the attack and moving them all over into the centre where they could outnumber the Yorkist infantry with their infantry support. So, I have put a stop to this in the latest version.

[PeterThePainter]

As I understand it the initial cavalry charge was a reaction to a feigned retreat by Salisbury and that is what the AI is simulating. The Yorkist longbowmen have commenced firing on the cavalry struggling in the marshy brook.

Thanks, that makes sense. I can see how the second rank, having been ordered forward against the retreating Yorkist, would not expect the first rank to have been held up and so very likely both ranks would bunch up when the Yorkists turned and fought. Very clever piece of game design.

[PeterThePainter]

Blore Heath Lancastrian Turn 6:
The cavalry has been decimated do we withdraw or fight on?

[stockwellpete]

Fight on. I don't have a rule for conceding a battle as it stands. Perhaps I should add one that all commanders are lost if you concede a battle?

[PeterThePainter]

The question expresses my thought processes. How hard can I push on with my original plan having suffered such high initial losses?

Having typed it I wondered whether it also reflected the ending of an episode of a TV drama of my youth trying to hype up the next episode, or a modern TV celebrity challenge inviting the audience to vote for advance or retreat.

I have no intention of conceding, although losing is a real possibility. All generals intact on both sides.

[edb1815]

Historically they withdrew the cavalry and launched a second attack with infantry that was having more success, then the Lancastrian commander was killed fighting near the brook, Audley I believe.

[PeterThePainter]

Apologies to all, especially my opponent, I am off to Portugal for six days, so there be a slight delay in the game. We have been progressing at a fair pace with 11 turns played now so I would expect the game to finish on or before 21st November, if we continue at our current pace after my return.
Unfortunately, I don't have a screen shot to show the current situation and it is very fluid, so a lot has changed since the previous turn. The current score is 31-26 to the Lancastrians, however as they were losing 0-21 a few turns ago I am not going to attempt to predict the final outcome of the battle. So far, all generals have survived despite 3 of them being involved in melees.

[edb1815]

Adding to Peter's comments above from the Yorkist perspective. The Lancastrians have broken through the Yorkist lines in several places and are setting up for unopposed flank attacks. Unfortunately for the Yorkists the cavalry on the left flank has tied down significant forces which would otherwise reinforce the center against the Lancastrian infantry attack.

Several events that occurred historically to tip the battle for the Yorkists are hard to replicate in FOG: The withdrawal of the cavalry after several failed attacks, the death of Audley and the defection of a company (500) mounted men at arms to the Yorkists. I also believe that the terrain should be more of an obstacle at least to mounted. The accounts talk about the brook lined by a hedge and then a steep defile. I would suggest changing the stream from "not open" to rough. Having said the Yorkists attacked as the mounted force crossed the steam from their position higher up the hill. de Waurin's account also talks about the high casualties caused by the Yorkist longbowmen. An adjustment to the ammo count may resolve this one though.

[stockwellpete]

Adding to Peter's comments above from the Yorkist perspective. The Lancastrians have broken through the Yorkist lines in several places and are setting up for unopposed flank attacks. Unfortunately for the Yorkists the cavalry on the left flank has tied down significant forces which would otherwise reinforce the center against the Lancastrian infantry attack.

I am surprised to hear this. Did you move a number of units over to your left to fight off the cavalry attack? I think you probably need to move just one unit over there. Have any Lancastrian cavalry units been able to get across to support the Lancastrian infantry? I have put impassable squares to make this much harder.

Several events that occurred historically to tip the battle for the Yorkists are hard to replicate in FOG: The withdrawal of the cavalry after several failed attacks, the death of Audley and the defection of a company (500) mounted men at arms to the Yorkists. I also believe that the terrain should be more of an obstacle at least to mounted. The accounts talk about the brook lined by a hedge and then a steep defile. I would suggest changing the stream from "not open" to rough. Having said the Yorkists attacked as the mounted force crossed the steam from their position higher up the hill. de Waurin's account also talks about the high casualties caused by the Yorkist longbowmen. An adjustment to the ammo count may resolve this one though.

I am on version 3 of this scenario already - it has been a very difficult scenario to balance. I will keep these ideas in mind when I do further play tests. Thanks.

[edb1815]

Adding to Peter's comments above from the Yorkist perspective. The Lancastrians have broken through the Yorkist lines in several places and are setting up for unopposed flank attacks. Unfortunately for the Yorkists the cavalry on the left flank has tied down significant forces which would otherwise reinforce the center against the Lancastrian infantry attack.

I am surprised to hear this. Did you move a number of units over to your left to fight off the cavalry attack? I think you probably need to move just one unit over there. Have any Lancastrian cavalry units been able to get across to support the Lancastrian infantry? I have put impassable squares to make this much harder.

Several events that occurred historically to tip the battle for the Yorkists are hard to replicate in FOG: The withdrawal of the cavalry after several failed attacks, the death of Audley and the defection of a company (500) mounted men at arms to the Yorkists. I also believe that the terrain should be more of an obstacle at least to mounted. The accounts talk about the brook lined by a hedge and then a steep defile. I would suggest changing the stream from "not open" to rough. Having said the Yorkists attacked as the mounted force crossed the steam from their position higher up the hill. de Waurin's account also talks about the high casualties caused by the Yorkist longbowmen. An adjustment to the ammo count may resolve this one though.

I am on version 3 of this scenario already - it has been a very difficult scenario to balance. I will keep these ideas in mind when I do further play tests. Thanks.

No, the cavalry attacked, and I defended with the units already there. As Peter mentioned initially the cavalry took serious casualties but now the situation has reversed. I have been taking units from that flank into the center but have kept 3 or so units in front of the cavalry so they don't cross as he did try on occasion especially along the road.

[PeterThePainter]

It is interesting to read the comments above, although I should point out that what I say now may be unduly influenced by a lovely meal washed down with a bottle of Portuguese white wine and finished off with a glass of Port. Back to the reality of a British winter tomorrow!

I have not read widely on the battle but it does seem the Lancastrians had a numerical advantage. StockwellPete’s changes have improved the battle over the first version, based on what I saw of Snuggles Bunnies video. The impassable squares hamper movement of the Lancastrian cavalry towards the centre and left but what I managed to do was shift my infantry to my left, and used what remained of the cavalry, a lot was lost in those first 3/4 turns before I was able to give them some room to fall back, to pin my some of opponents infantry opposite them.

This meant when my infantry did cross the stream/ brook the focus of my infantry attack was my centre left. This was a long way from the units my opponent was able to switch from his left once he had repelled the initial cavalry charge. I therefore had a local numerical superiority and this has the reason for the Lancastrian resurgence, despite the fact I have found the terrain favours the Yorkists. No doubt if I had sat back and waited for them to cross the stream the Lancastrians would have benefitted from fighting downhill.

I think my opponent makes a couple of good points, the loss of the Lancastrian CinC and a unit switching sides would undoubtedly have had a big impact in the real battle, who knows the Lancastrian C in C may well perish in our battle.

My feeling about the battle over the last couple of turns was that I had overplayed my hand and pushed too hard to win, so I don’t think this is over yet. That said I think it is very difficult to balance a battle in which a numerically superior force is soundly routed. I have found it very challenging battle and I am looking forward to the remaining turns.

This version of the battle is much truer to the historical version than the Snuggle Bunnies video I watched but, because of the numbers,I believe it still slightly favours the Lancastrians.

[PeterThePainter]

Blore Heath Update:

On Turn 17 Humphrey Stafford, the Lancastrian CinC fell in combat. In the same turn Henry Percy rallied a unit of Lancastrian dismounted Men at Arms and the Lancastrians finished the turn 58 -32 ahead, but....

The Yorkists have two turns to play, and a fragmented Lancastrian unit will break so this will go to 60% but I am not sure if there is 2% the Lancastrians can pick up in a turn, so it may, or may not, be Ludford Bridge next. You will all know soon.

[stockwellpete]

Just flagging up the "Pursuit" rules in the campaign . . .

ii) Pursuit, capture, ransom and execution of historical personalities
If you win a battle then none of your surviving leader figures can be captured.

If you lose the battle then your surviving leader figures will be captured in the pursuit phase if the enemy has at least 2 mounted cavalry, or light cavalry units (“prickers”) still active on the battlefield and with “Steady” status (i.e. not “Disrupted”, “Fragmented” or “Routed”) - and provided the winning side has lost less than 30% of its total strength on the final battlefield screen (not the after-battle summary screen).

Historical figures captured in this way can be either ransomed or executed. Commanders who are ransomed back are worth 2 victory points each; royals who are ransomed back are worth 4 victory points each.