Replace the field fortifications of the Ottoman infantry in the 1362-1429 AD's army list with the stakes?

[Dux Limitis]

According to the historical record and might be well-known as same as the English at the Agincourt,the Ottomans used the stakes to protect their infantry from the cavalry attack at the Nicopolis,and forced the French and the Burgundian men at arms to dismounted.Stakes and the field fortifications are different in the game's rules,so I think the game should change the Ottoman infantry or at least the Azabs' field fortifications to the stakes? By the way,I think the game could add a speacial rule to the Crusader of Nicopolis,which will allow the feudal men at arms(I think they can represent the French and the Burgundian men at arms)to dismount after the battle has started,but can't re-mount after they are dismount,more like the war wagons,to better simulate the historical scene.Just like at the Nicopolis,some of their horses were impaled on the stakes or been stopped,then they were dismounting,pulled up the stakes to allow the others through and kept their attack,eventully routed the weaker Ottoman infantry.

[MVP7]

From what I have read the stakes at Nicopolis weren't used like the English used stakes. The English stakes were used as more of a spontaneous shallow defense that could be set up at short notice. The stakes at Nicopolis were much deeper prepared field of obstacles. Functionally I imagine it would be closer to the field fortifications than stakes in FoG2 system.

[Dux Limitis]

From what I have read the stakes at Nicopolis weren't used like the English used stakes. The English stakes were used as more of a spontaneous shallow defense that could be set up at short notice. The stakes at Nicopolis were much deeper prepared field of obstacles. Functionally I imagine it would be closer to the field fortifications than stakes in FoG2 system.

According to the Biography of Boucicaut,it reads:

The Turks meanwhile were drawing up battle lines and positioning horse and foot in good order;they had devised a cunning plan to trick our men.To start with,a large body of mounted Turks set up in formation in front of their foot;behind the mounted troops, between each rider and those on foot,they set up a barrier of sharpened stakes,the stakes tilted forwards towards our men, and at a height where they would drive into the horses’ bellies.This they did at the double – their men had been trained to erect the stakes at speed – and meanwhile our men advanced in serried ranks at the trot, and were nearing the Turkish lines[...Omit...]The count of Nevers, along with all the French, agreed and pressed forward to engage the Saracens – but in doing so they dashed themselves against the barrier of stakes which stood so rigid and razor-sharp that they impaled the horses’ bellies; many of our men were killed and wounded as they fell from their horses.Our men were very much encumbered, but they struggled through[...Omit...]. But they were few in the face of overwhelming odds.And yet,do not imagine that they fled or faltered:like the wild boar brought to bay that stands firmer even when death seems close, so our French too stood firm against the hedge of stakes and passed through it,all courage and fortitude. Ah! Noble France! Not only today are your brave champions paragons of courage and defiance in the face of all the nations![...Omit...]The noble French, enraged by the loss of their comrades both to the hail of Saracen fire and to the sharpened stakes,charged so bravely that they terrified the enemy.I need not describe the ferocity of the attack:no wild boar foaming at the mouth, no rabid wolf was ever so savage.More valiant than all, Marshal Boucicaut threw himself into the thick of the fighting; his grief had made him reckless,for truly he fought with astonishing bravery[Omit].

1024px-Bataille_de_Nicopolis_(Archives_B.N.)_1.jpg (331.68 KiB) Viewed 1818 times

And there's a painting which described the initial phase of the battle from around the 1472-1475 AD,probably according to the records too.

The book was completed in 9 April,1409 AD,not far from the battle,and the author was probably had witnessed the battle,so it's relatively credible.According to the scripts,it appears that the stakes which the Ottomans had used at there were much more same as the English had used at the Agincourt.And,though it's only the speculation,the English probably had learned that from that book.

[Cherebuschka]

Wasn't the problem the limitation of Field of Glory 2 that doesn't allow the same unit to utilise both stakes and other FF ?

[MVP7]

In terms of gameplay the description of speedy setup does push the nature the Ottoman stakes towards FoG2 stakes even if they were likely a deeper defense. I do recall the stakes at Battle of Nicopolis being discussed in the beta forums during one of the earlier DLC betas but I don't remember if there were some alternative descriptions or interpretations of the battle or what the ultimate conclusions regarding the Ottoman use of stakes were.

Mechanically it is possible to have both stakes and FF for the same army and unit so some of the units in the Ottoman list could certainly have option for stakes. If unit has both FF and Stakes it can either place FF during setup which means it will lose ability to place stakes later, or it can save the ability to place stakes for the combat. Mechanically this could be the most accurate option for the Ottomans but they would still use the regular FF graphics if deployed during setup.

[Dux Limitis]

Wasn't the problem the limitation of Field of Glory 2 that doesn't allow the same unit to utilise both stakes and other FF ?

I wanna ask that too,I think it's technically possible.

[Athos1660]

The stakes at the Battle of Nicopolis were indeed discussed in the beta forums. Richard, the dev of the FoG2 series, is (of course) aware that they were used during this battle. However, the Ottomans also used other types of FF in other battles. So Richard chose to give them FF as the best compromise, considering all the variables related to History, Game design, Development, etc.

[rbodleyscott]

The stakes at the Battle of Nicopolis were indeed discussed in the beta forums. Richard, the dev of the FoG2 series, is (of course) aware that they were used during this battle. However, the Ottomans also used other types of FF in other battles. So Richard chose to give them FF as the best compromise, considering all the variables related to History, Game design, Development, etc.

That is correct. The Ottomans used various form of barricades and fixed field fortifications to protect their infantry at different dates.

At Nicopolis in 1396 the Turks used a 16 foot deep field of stakes, which they had apparently been trained to set up rapidly - too rapidly for the Christians to be aware of them until they cleared away the skirmishers in front.

At Varna in 1444 they used a ditch and rampart as well as stakes and camels.

At Kossovo in 1446 they used a ditch, with camels behind and shields fixed in the ground behind those.

In later battles (from about 1470) they added wagons to the defences.

As far as we know, Nicopolis is the only recorded instance of them using only stakes. But we don't know at what stage between 1396 and 1444 they added ditches.

So, it would be reasonable to add stakes as an option to the 1362-1429 list, possibly just for the Janissaries, but possibly also for massed Azab archers.

I have not been able to discover information on what type of field fortifications, if any, the Ottoman infantry used at the battle of Ankara in 1402.

Whether the option for FF (in open battle) should be removed from the list is another question - I don't want to split the list if avoidable, as it has various knock-on effects for allies etc. I could remove the option for FF in open battle from the 1362-1429 list, but leave it in for defensive battles.

Once the Ottomans started adding artillery to the centre, which may not have been till the 1440s, it could then certainly not be set up rapidly, and hence should be FF rather than optionally stakes.

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So my current conclusion (for a revision in the next update) is:

1362-1429 list:

Janissaries and massed Azabs optionally have stakes.
FF only useable in Defensive battles

1430-1500 list:

No stakes (treated as part of the FF).
FF useable in Open as well as Defensive battles.

[rbodleyscott]

By the way,I think the game could add a speacial rule to the Crusader of Nicopolis,which will allow the feudal men at arms(I think they can represent the French and the Burgundian men at arms)to dismount after the battle has started,but can't re-mount after they are dismount,more like the war wagons,to better simulate the historical scene.Just like at the Nicopolis,some of their horses were impaled on the stakes or been stopped,then they were dismounting,pulled up the stakes to allow the others through and kept their attack,eventully routed the weaker Ottoman infantry.

This would be a lot harder to implement, just for the one battle.

Also, these dismounted men would not be in separate units of dismounted men, but mixed up with the men who still had horses. That being the case, I think it would be reasonable to assume that this phenomenon is abstracted into the overall effect of the stakes.

After all, all hard-fought battles would include some dismounted men-at-arms after some of them had had their horses killed without themselves suffering too much injury to continue fighting.

[Dux Limitis]

However, the Ottomans also used other types of FF in other battles.

Only in the later battles the other types of field fortifications were recorded,so I only asked the stakes for this earlier list.I don't see any records that can indicate they have field fortifications other than stakes in this period(1362-1429 AD).

[Dux Limitis]

The stakes at the Battle of Nicopolis were indeed discussed in the beta forums. Richard, the dev of the FoG2 series, is (of course) aware that they were used during this battle. However, the Ottomans also used other types of FF in other battles. So Richard chose to give them FF as the best compromise, considering all the variables related to History, Game design, Development, etc.

As far as we know, Nicopolis is the only recorded instance of them using only stakes. But we don't know at what stage between 1396 and 1444 they added ditches.

So, it would be reasonable to add stakes as an option to the 1362-1429 list, possibly just for the Janissaries, but possibly also for massed Azab archers.

I have not been able to discover information on what type of field fortifications, if any, the Ottoman infantry used at the battle of Ankara in 1402.

Whether the option for FF (in open battle) should be removed from the list is another question - I don't want to split the list if avoidable, as it has various knock-on effects for allies etc. I could remove the option for FF in open battle from the 1362-1429 list, but leave it in for defensive battles.

Once the Ottomans started adding artillery to the centre, which may not have been till the 1440s, it could then certainly not be set up rapidly, and hence should be FF rather than optionally stakes.

------------------------

So my current conclusion (for a revision in the next update) is:

1362-1429 list:

Janissaries and massed Azabs optionally have stakes.
FF only useable in Defensive battles

1430-1500 list:

No stakes (treated as part of the FF).
FF useable in Open as well as Defensive battles.

Yes,it's a wise choice mister,the reason what I asked the stakes for the Ottoman 1362-1429's list is.But I think if be more cautious,you could remove the field fortifications of this list entirely,because only the stakes but no other field fortifications were recorded in this period(From all available sources for now).

[Dux Limitis]

By the way,I think the game could add a speacial rule to the Crusader of Nicopolis,which will allow the feudal men at arms(I think they can represent the French and the Burgundian men at arms)to dismount after the battle has started,but can't re-mount after they are dismount,more like the war wagons,to better simulate the historical scene.Just like at the Nicopolis,some of their horses were impaled on the stakes or been stopped,then they were dismounting,pulled up the stakes to allow the others through and kept their attack,eventully routed the weaker Ottoman infantry.

This would be a lot harder to implement, just for the one battle.

Also, these dismounted men would not be in separate units of dismounted men, but mixed up with the men who still had horses. That being the case, I think it would be reasonable to assume that this phenomenon is abstracted into the overall effect of the stakes.

After all, all hard-fought battles would include some dismounted men-at-arms after some of them had had their horses killed without themselves suffering too much injury to continue fighting.

Thanks for the explain mister.

[MVP7]

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So my current conclusion (for a revision in the next update) is:

1362-1429 list:

Janissaries and massed Azabs optionally have stakes.
FF only useable in Defensive battles

Just to clarify, does this mean that in defensive battles there will be a toggle buttons for both FF and stakes and the Janissaries and Azabs come as "Stakes or FF" with both toggled on?

[rbodleyscott]

------------------------

So my current conclusion (for a revision in the next update) is:

1362-1429 list:

Janissaries and massed Azabs optionally have stakes.
FF only useable in Defensive battles

Just to clarify, does this mean that in defensive battles there will be a toggle buttons for both FF and stakes and the Janissaries and Azabs come as "Stakes or FF" with both toggled on?

Yes