INTERCEPTION CHARGES

donm · Post by **donm** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:11 pm

Today at the Devizes competition it was ruled that an interception charge could not contact the charging enemy unit.

I have just read through the whole section on interception charges and can find no wording to that effect.

What I would say, is that if this where the case, then an interception charge could never contact a charging enemy in the flank.

Could someone help please?

Thanks

Don

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:21 pm

donm wrote:Today at the Devizes competition it was ruled that an interception charge could not contact the charging enemy unit.

I have just read through the whole section on interception charges and can find no wording to that effect.

What I would say, is that if this where the case, then an interception charge could never contact a charging enemy in the flank.

Could someone help please?

Thanks

Don

Page 63 clearly states that a flank or rear intercept contacts the enemy flank or rear.

Otherwise you can only "cross the path", which does not explicitly permit contact and the FAQ states that interceptors do not make contact

donm · Post by **donm** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:52 pm

I think we have found the problem now. The chargers wheeled to avoid contact with the interceptors.

Page 64 point 1,

'Unless its charge is cancelled as above, the original charging battle group now
completes its charge move. This may partly or wholly contact the intercepting
battle group, and may or may not contact the original target of the charge at
all.

I think this implies that the charging unit must contact the intercepting unit
and may have the option to contact the original targets.

In the case at Devizes the wheel was not allowed because it reduced the number of elements fighting.

However, the point above over-rides that as the chargers do not seem to have an option not to contact the interceptors.

I think we got there in the end.

Don

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:15 am

It is clarified in the FAQ

Path must be declared before inteceptions - and can include a wheel of course.

Then interceptions - which by definition then must be contacted, or in flank or rear contact the charger and cancel their charge.

The only time you can change the declared path thereafter is when everything in the path evades.

Si

Lycanthropic · Post by **Lycanthropic** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:03 am

Can your intercepting BG contact other enemy BGs on the way?
"You so much as blink in my ZOI and I'll.............."

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:47 am

Lycanthropic wrote:Can your intercepting BG contact other enemy BGs on the way?
"You so much as blink in my ZOI and I'll.............."

No

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:49 pm

Also in the FAQ if I recall correctly

Simon

Bugle999 · Post by **Bugle999** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:25 pm

To be accurate regarding what happened at Devizes...
The wheel WAS allowed as when the charge was initiated the charging unit could contact 3 bases AND it still contacted 3 bases after the wheel.
The confusion arose because Don thought that interception charges could make actual contact with the chargers rather than just interpose themselves along the charge path.
Glad to say Richard was spot on in his analysis and ruling.

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:51 pm

Sound like the author umpire did exactly what the authors intended to me

Si

donm · Post by **donm** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:22 pm

Perhaps not as clear as everyone thinks.

Hopefully these pictures will help

The situation at the begining of the move.

Cavalry at the top of picture declare a charge on the infantry. They intend to wheel to line up on the front of the infantry.

My column of shock cavalry declare an intercept charge, as the attackers are directly to my front and well within 4 inches.

My cavalry column moves forward and stops the smallest distance from the chargers. The chargers are now nearer to my interceptors than my infantry.

The FAQ quotes,

'If the interceptors are intercepting the chargers from the front, both chargers and interceptors are in reality charging semi-simultanously. However, for the sake of simple game play the interception charge is moved sufficiently to get in the way of the original charge and then the original chargers are moved into contact. The interceptors do not make contact - they therefore do not step forward. The original chargers step forward as usual.'

It is ruled that the chargers ignore the interceptors and wheel into the infantry, remaining the smallest distance from the interceptors.

Because no contact is made with the interceptors, the interception charge is ruled illegal and returned to its original position.

Both Steve and I thought this looked wrong, but where told that that was the umpirers decision and so we got on with the game.

What troubles me is that I have declared a permitted interception charge, that is not allowed to contact the chargers 'for the sake of simple game play,' which then not only

does not contact the chargers, but is ruled illegal because it does not make contact.

Can I just say That I don't have a problem with anything Rick did. He put forward an argument and it was accepted by the umpire.

I don't have a problem with the umpire, he was asked to make a decision and he made one and we got on with the game.

Despite what people may believe I do not play these rules very often, in fact I have only played wice since Usk.

What troubles me is that I have declared and tried to make a legal interception charge and because of an entry on a FAQ, which is suppose to help clarify the rules, not only

was I not able to do that, but it was declared illegal and not permitted.

Don

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:37 pm

I believe this had to be an illegal wheel for this situation to actually occur. (see * below for possible exception)

Why? For the outlined scenario to happen the front corner of the charging cavalry on the right hand side of the screen has to be advanced beyond the line of the infantry. If the cavalry corner is in front of the infantry the interceptors move as you describe and I don't believe it is possible for them to avoid the interceptors.

So in this situation the cavalry must have wheeled backwards, which is not allowed.

*There might be an issue if the cavalry corner in question is exactly on the line with the infantry, but if it is at all forward or backward of the line this can't happen I believe.

If the charging cavalry is ahead of the line, the interceptors move slightly in front of the infantry.

If the charging cavalry are behind the line they can't wheel as indicated.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:40 pm

Richard ruled correctly.

Charge with no wheel would have meant 3 bases fought at impact. Charge with wheel also has 3 bases fighting at impact and, due to how the bases happen to be on the table, do not contact the attempted intercept so that cannot take place.

I would agree it looks a bit kooky, however, it is as per the rules thanks to the intercepters don't move to contact rule.

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:45 pm

donm wrote: What troubles me is that I have declared and tried to make a legal interception charge and because of an entry on a FAQ, which is suppose to help clarify the rules, not only

was I not able to do that, but it was declared illegal and not permitted.

Clarifying is all the FAQ does. If you read the 1st bulletpoint on p. 64 it says: " ... the original charging BG now completes its charge move. This may partly or wholy contact the intercepting BG ..."
To me that also implies that the interceptors themselve did not make make contact before, otherwise they would already be in contact. I can see how it can be read otherwise though, hence the clarification in the FAQ. I don't think the FAQ made any actual changes to the rules here, just clarifying how the above sentence should be interpreted.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:48 pm

ethan wrote:I believe this had to be an illegal wheel for this situation to actually occur. (see * below for possible exception)

Why? For the outlined scenario to happen the front corner of the charging cavalry on the right hand side of the screen has to be advanced beyond the line of the infantry.

On the line extending the front of the infantry or beyond it (further down the page in this picture) and you will avoid the intercept as that corner will stay fixed in place and not advance down the page, therefore, not coming into contact with the intercept - but the rest of the cavalry will hit the infantry, with a step forward if the corner is further down the page.

gibby · Post by **gibby** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:08 pm

Not an expert but I must say I don't like the look of this.
Under charges it says you must charge in one of 2 ways.
Advance directly ahead or combine such an advance with a wheel.
If it has solely wheeled into contact because the corner has stayed in place is that legal. It has not combined an advance with the wheel from what I have read here and on the forum.

cheers
Jim

donm · Post by **donm** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:28 pm

Ghaznavid

This may partly or wholy contact the intercepting BG ..."

But if you include the full sentence you quote 'This may partly or wholly contact the intercepting battle group, and may or may not contact the original target of the charge.'

This implies that it is only the amount of contact that is the option permmitted by the chargers in respect of the interceptors and it is the option to contact or not to contact in

respect of the original target.

All the FAQ says is that the interceptor cannot contact the charger. The question is do the chargers have to contact the interceptors?

The justification for the interceptors not contacting the chargers appears to be 'simple game play'.

Don

donm · Post by **donm** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:33 pm

Nik,

I think you have missed the point.

If an attacker has a legal interception charge declared on it, can it choose to not contact that interceptor?

Page 62, second point

'If an enemy battle group atempts to charge through the ZOI of a battle group that is not itself a target of any charge this turn, that battle group has the option of making an

interception charge on the chargers.'

Please see my reply to Ghaznavid's post and also Simon's comment that chargers must contact interceptors.

Also, page 52 Declaration of charges.

There does not appear to be a need to declare any wheels etc when declaring a charge.

However, second para

'Any enemy battle group in the path of a charge counts as being charged if it can be 'legally' contacted, even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge.'

Page 54 Charging to contact etc

'To charge, move your battle group forward making any wheels or formation changes allowed, until a 'legal' contact is made.'

The attacking cavalry in this instance only has to move forward to make such a 'legal' contact with the interceptors.

Don

richardsd · Post by **richardsd** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:08 pm

I don't think there is cheese here really. A simple rationalisation could be that the chargers are too close to allow an intercept. Don't let the charges get so close to your flank.

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:10 pm

The point is that you can't declare a legal interception as you cannot get into the path of the charge - that being the area covered by the charging bases. So it never happened.
Si

donm · Post by **donm** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:13 pm

Simon,

I have edited my post with a couple more points which I think shows that the interceptors will be in the chargers path.

Sorry Don

INTERCEPTION CHARGES

INTERCEPTION CHARGES

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