Do I need more Sturmpanzer in GC42

[PanzerTum]

Just starting GC42 for the first time (on Colonel level). Blind play!
I was wondering if my artillery composition is ok and that I am not relying too heavily on towed arty.
I can imagine that in the later scenarios the towed arty becomes too vulnerable with close (city) fighting.

At the start of Vitebsk I have this:
- 2 15CM towed
- 4 17CM towed
- 2 StuG IIIB
- 1 Sturmpanzer
- 1 21cm Nebelwerfer

Size wise I think this is pretty ok for now, just some doubt about the composition.

In Vitebsk I left 1 towed arty at home, choices choices...

[captainjack]

Personally I use a lot of artillery, so would probably be using 12 or maybe even more by Vitebsk. But you have a reasonable number and a mix of units which is good in my experience.

Once you get into cities you'll need artillery backing up almost everything. This is generally good advice anyway, but in cities, your close defence is a weakness. So you need mobile artillery - a move hero towed gun is fine for pioneers and Grenadieren, but otherwise Stugs are probably the best option for defence, with some towed guns for attacking.

Something to consider is ammo count. This is because you can get a lot of attacks and as soon as your artillery runs out you're gone - very disappointing if Oleh Dir gets wiped put because you forgot to refill the artillery behind him. This would make me wary of the 21cm nebelwerfer with only 5 ammo, although it is very effective so worth bringing along. That would definitely limit the half track rocket launcher, though excellent for attacking it's all too easily emptied.

Why do I say use towed guns for attacking? Firstly because they have range so together can dump a lot of fire onto a single target, but also because they tend to have plenty of ammo so can fire more often. But also because you really need defensive guns to keep the front line safe that hardly ever attack and spend most of their time defensive firing and then resupplying. That means you need different (longer ranged) guns to hit things from a safe(ish) position. That's why I like the mix of guns you have - something for everything.

One other consideration is rate of fire.
110% for Stug, 75mms, 100% for 105 and rockets, 80% for Brummbar, 150 and 170mm.
So against infantry, the 75mm towed (or the Stug) is a bit better than it looks, and a move hero gun as a 75 has a ton of ammo and provides very good defence against infantry, and because it's mostly a defensive gun the short range doesn't matter much. Also, the heavier guns are not quite as good as they look(though better against armour). I tend to do either 105mm for soft targets (because it has higher ammo and ROF than the 150) and 170 for heavy hitting (same RoF as 150 and only 1 less ammo).

If unsure for a city attack, you can always buy a couple of extra Stugs or something to ensure you have plenty of defensive fire capacity. They'll either end up with a couple of stars experience or destroyed and you can sell them off after if you don't want to keep them in reserve.

Hope these provide some useful ideas.

[heinzrondorf]

I had to learn the hard way the importance of artillery when I first started out playing the game. I think not having and fielding enough artillery units is one of the most common mistakes new players make.

Personally I like to have 12-14 artillery units as well as 2 strategic bombers in my core. I like having a mix of self propelled artillery, towed "regular" artillery as well as rocket artillery such as Nebelwerfen and Wurfrahmen 40. If I get range heroes on artillery units I will often upgrade them into Stug (and later Brummbär) when those become available as it makes those units so much more useful when they have a range of 2 instead of 1.

[Moniker]

As the previous posters mentioned it is a good idea to have plenty of artillery. If you are wondering if you have enough Sturmpanzers that may be the sign to buy another one. Could come in handy to have two when running two attacking battle groups in offensive missions.
But don't worry too much about what you see on YouTube. Just have fun on your first play through on Colonel!

[proline]

I too run with a dozen artillery units. A beginner mistake in GC east is having too small of a core. You want like 60 units in your core for a variety of reasons:

-because there are some scenarios that let you deploy huge armies
-so that you can deploy the optimal unit mix for each scenario
-so you have depth in case some of them die
-more chance of getting the best heroes

You also want to have that big core early on, say by 1941 at the latest. In 1943 onwards it starts getting hard to both keep green units alive and also build experience on them.

[PanzerTum]

Thanks for all the good advice! Especially the rate of fire is interesting and not directly apparent to a newby.
Vitebsk cost me a towed arty so I added a 10.5 instead of a heavier caliber. I think I also lost Wirnsberger there but didn't notice it at the time..

Kharkov was relatively easy with little damage and no losses.

My core at the start of Simferopol is 58+5
-14 inf: (1 SE) 1 wehr, 1 grenadier, 3 para, 3 gebirgs, 3 Pio, 1 bridge, 2 krad
-17 tanks (4 SE) including Mathilde, 4 T34/40-41 and 1 KV1. The rest I sold. I used the mathilde and kv1 in Demyansk, the KV also in Kharkov. And a Flamm of course..
-2 recons who keep dying on me
-arty as mentioned
-2 StuG IIIF and 1 Marder II. Never liked the Marder in PG, too vulnerable as it seems to be here as well but I'll give it a try.
-2 Mobile AA
-2 8.8 cm Flak
-6 BF109G
-3 Stuka 87D
-1 BF110G
-2 Ju88 and 1 HE177A

All units have experience (some more than others of course) as I try to rotate the core so that most scenarios include a few "learner" units.
It's a pain to build up experience but it will only get more difficult later on so I try to be prepared.

After Simferopol I intend to go for the Sevastopol Assault so will probably get more arty for that one.
I also expect the mobile antitank group to grow and maybe AA as well.

I really like the core concept of PC. Growing and nursing your core is one of the fun aspects. Seeing the quality I have in reserve just makes me feel good

[faos333]

I agree it is a good idea to have plenty of artillery, in my view you need 12+ units at least at the end in 1945

[PeteMitchell]

I agree with all of what has been said. As a note, there were several discussions on the best/optimal mix of artillery pieces/use on this forum, i.e. regarding the number of 15 vs. 17 cm, worth looking into these threads, e.g. regarding rate of fire, best purpose, etc.

[LevV]

Generally hard not to agree to most of above. Particularly about Sturmpanzer i used to have 3-4 in my core until more advanced sp arty come into play in 1943, but once i learned that in reality sturmpanzers were extra rare i try to limit myself to one.
I dont see how to use less or more than 3 groups in mid war. Uniformly that would mean 3 stugs, 3 wurfrahmen, 3 × 10.5+15 (or 15+17 cm from 43), that is 12 as many have mentioned. But i usually try to have fun making it work with less/cheaper guns. One thing i never tried is to seriously use 7.5 cm.
One thing i dont understand why people say you have to have something for the entire campaign - you can buy whatever you need before any scenario. If thats not some insane difficulty - there should be plenty of funds to experiment with all you want to try.

[PanzerTum]

Well, I have fought GC42 up to and including Ilovlya, which was a hefty fight, and decided to start again with GC39 incorporating everything I learned sofar.
Just played spoils of war for the first time which was also a nice surprise. Had to regroup several times due to overenthusiastic moves...
In cityfights I prefer the higher ammo of towed artillery and also rediscovered the value of the 10.5.
As long as arty is shielded from enemy units and the advance is slow towed arty is fine.
For fast armoured spearheads the StuG and Sturmpanzer is preferred, at least for the front units (no experience yet with Wulfrahmen).
Anyway this game is going to be long term planning with all the DLC's available I have yet to play..

[PeteMitchell]

New/green units become more difficult to deploy/keep alive at later scenarios

[LevV]

New/green units become more difficult to deploy/keep alive at later scenarios

not for artillery except for 0 star 10.5 will be not too useful

[PeteMitchell]

True but still a bit less effective overall IMHO... i.e. green vs. 2-3 star with possibly a hero

[rubyjuno]

Well, I have fought GC42 up to and including Ilovlya, which was a hefty fight, and decided to start again with GC39 incorporating everything I learned so far.

I did exactly the same

[sarahroxon]

Well, I have fought GC42 up to and including Ilovlya, which was a hefty fight, and decided to start again with GC39 incorporating everything I learned so far.

I did exactly the same

Have you got your results yet?
slope game

[PanzerTum]

Well, I have fought GC42 up to and including Ilovlya, which was a hefty fight, and decided to start again with GC39 incorporating everything I learned so far.

I did exactly the same

Have you got your results yet?
slope game

For me, second time around, 7k prestige at the start of GC 40 and 35 core units, compared to near zero prestige and some 20-25 core unit's first time round.
Somewhat better at making less stupid mistakes, better prestige management and more informed upgrades.

[PeteMitchell]

What were your key learnings up until then?

[PanzerTum]

What were your key learnings up until then?

Well having played Panzer General on and off from 1994 till beginning of this year I was firmly rooted on what worked well in that game. Like having 6 pioniere units at the start of France.
At the start of Sedan I changed two pio units back to fallschirmjaeger, so big prestige waste. Pioniere units are great but with enough arty softening I have never seen the rugged defense decimation I sometimes experienced in PG.

PG is blitzkrieg, PC less so, there is enough time to take it slower and look at the secondary objectives.
Which is also advisable to prevent flanking counter attacks that will slow you down anyway.

More reliance on suppression and order of attack. Trying to take the terrain more into account, no tanks in forests, no infantry on open terrain.

Using normal replacements for units that have enough experience already and can also regain it quickly. It is a bit useless to use elite replacements in GC39 if units have 225 exp already. Something I learned from Braccada..

One of the points was to not use Pz38s since they are not upgradeable and basically a waste of money. But I used 2 anyway, PzI and PzII were too useless for me.

If at all possible always cover your frontline units with artillery, preferably two adjacent ones.

More reliance on AA and AT, apart from the 88 the mobile AA should also be trained. Training paks is still beyond me apart from Piatek.
Training panzerjaegers remains difficult as well. First time around I lost quite a number of them and they do not come cheap.
Same as with recons I need to be less aggressive.

Surrender tactics I still need to improve upon.
Fighter and artillery traps are still largely non-existent.

Sometimes the best move is to do nothing.

[heinzrondorf]

Sometimes the best move is to do nothing.

This is a great summary in a single sentence but I would rephrase it to "Sometimes the best move is to resupply" but I think that's what you meant .

Especially for the scenarios where you get turns of poor weather due to rain, snow etc it is good to use the turn as a break and resupply. Sometimes you have no choice to move forward anyway (Vyazma/GC41 et al) in order to reach the objectives in time but in most cases it is better to use turns with bad weather to resupply. It is simply too risky to move forward since you can not use air support to soften up the enemy and the risk of running into ambushes and traps due to the poor visibility are so much greater. Since you are resupplying the units you ARE in fact doing something which you will reap the rewards of in coming turns.

I always try to think about resupplying, especially in the defensive scenarios later on in the GC where you have your forces set up in a defensive shape and it is more about holding ground than gaining ground. Is there something for your unit to shoot at? Great! If not, use the turn to resupply it so you have max ammo and fuel when you need to shoot or move. Do not end the turn until you are sure there are no units not engaged in combat left to resupply.

Apart from not using enough artillery I think a very common mistake among new players is playing overly aggressive and rushed which leads to severe losses at best and units totally destroyed at worst. I have played the game for 5 years now and even so when I get too sloppy and impatient and start to rush things the game always finds a way to punish me. But you have to learn the hard way.

It is usually better to take it a bit slower since you inflict more damage on the enemy at much less cost so you spend less prestige and turns having to bring in reinforcements just to keep your units alive. It really helps both on the battlefield and when it comes to the prestige management in the long run.

[PanzerTum]

Sometimes the best move is to do nothing.

This is a great summary in a single sentence but I would rephrase it to "Sometimes the best move is to resupply" but I think that's what you meant .

Resupply is one of the reasons to stay put. Bad weather turns are ideal for that although they are also ideal for unit positioning for the next big attack.
If I see a bigger fight coming, especially in city fighting, I make sure that I do not send the units in with just 1 ammo left. To keep a decent spearhead composition I sometimes resupply the entire spearhead at the same time.

In defensive scenario's like Demyansk I retreat artillery units to let them resupply behind the lines and roll in fresh ones so that cover is always present.

Other reasons for doing nothing would be if you can make a decent attack but you do not have a unit at hand to finish it off. So the enemy unit retreats and rebuilds in their own turn.
If the terrain into which you are attacking is not favorable or the odds are just not attractive I sometimes give them the chance to attack me instead so that my next turn looks better.
And of course when you are waiting for a larger operation like a pincer movement to be ready.

I also upped the difficulty level up to General. Nothing spectacular but still the better / more aggressive AI makes a change.