Army list disclosure

fredrik · Post by **fredrik** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:51 am

I understand this might not be a rules matter per se, but I'm curious to know how much information you'd typically divulge to your opponent during a tournament about your armylist. Specifically, would you be required to inform your opponent about the list year and if you've picked your army from a "special campaign" before deploying? Normally it doesn't matter but some armies can really change their whole character between certain years and/or campaigns.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:32 am

Tell them everything.......If they ask Frederik. Except where your ambushes and flank marches are
Though you didn't ask in Rome my army was 1380, and could only have been 1380 due to some of the troops selected. Not too important for the catalans, and you would have known I had a lot of LH with the PBI of +4 that I had.

Robert241167 · Post by **Robert241167** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:51 am

On a similar note in a recent competition my opponent asked for my points per unit type and he proceeded to calculate what I had put on the table.

This not only slowed the setup down but would have potentially made my ambush markers pointless.

Rob

paulcummins · Post by **paulcummins** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:09 am

not much more useless than the number of BGs you put down in each batch

most people ask - is there about 800 pts visisble - it saves the time of doing the adding up.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:38 pm

Robert241167 wrote:On a similar note in a recent competition my opponent asked for my points per unit type and he proceeded to calculate what I had put on the table.

This not only slowed the setup down but would have potentially made my ambush markers pointless.

Rob

You're only obliged to let him know what the troops are. If he wants to then work out the numbers let the dullard do the arithmetic!

fredrik · Post by **fredrik** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:25 pm

Thanks Phil, our game was a good example of this, I remember you deploying defensively on one flank with your almughvars for fear of facing Carthaginian arm/sup veterans which I didn't have due to year/list restrictions.

Hope the sunburn has healed up by the way, you were pretty red there at the end...

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:46 pm

Robert241167 wrote:On a similar note in a recent competition my opponent asked for my points per unit type and he proceeded to calculate what I had put on the table.

This not only slowed the setup down but would have potentially made my ambush markers pointless.

Rob

Thats very strange could'nt they wait till you had to throw your dice should you have a FM? and if you did'nt throw maybe you had an ambush.

But two of my players did the same thing so it was'nt just you.

As they say when in........

footslogger · Post by **footslogger** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:12 pm

Sounds like a need for a new iPhone app to speed up deployment while counting your opponents points.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:00 pm

most people ask - is there about 800 pts visisble - it saves the time of doing the adding up.

As Paul has said, I find this is the simplest way. I'm certainly happy to disclose how many points are missing after deployment. Why delay the game?

If an opponent won't disclose then you have the option of doing the maths.

One of the joys of FOG thus far is how open players are being. Why spoil it by trying to be arsey?

Pete

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:26 pm

Robert241167 wrote:On a similar note in a recent competition my opponent asked for my points per unit type and he proceeded to calculate what I had put on the table.

Yes, this is the problem with competitions. It brings out the worst kind of wargamer. Myself, in that situation, I would have said "that's not a part of the setup rules. If you want to get my army list book out you can look up what they're worth, but I'm not giving you that information. These 3 are Protected Drilled Offensive Spearmen, these are Armoured Cav LightSpear Swordsmen etc etc. Now, you work out my list points, while I go for a beer and look through the trade stalls. Back in 30 minutes"

Robert241167 wrote:This not only slowed the setup down but would have potentially made my ambush markers pointless.

Not at all. I will always try to put down more ambush markers than I have ambushers if possible.

You can also get a fairly good idea by looking at his deployment. If he puts down 4, 4, 4, 1 then you know he has at least two ambushers and/or flank marching BG's. When he rolls his first dice, you'll know if he has an outflank, so if he doesn't roll for an outflank, you'll know that 2 (maybe 3) BG's are in ambush. The prat above you're talking about will know how many points they are worth, but if you've put down two he won't know what are in them. One BG of 4 Poor Javelinmen and a BG of Knights, or 2 BG's of quality medium foot... you get what I mean?

I don't find ambushers that 'scary' in that sense, but I find playing against someone like that totally outwith the spirit of the game.

Ian

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:11 am

but I find playing against someone like that totally outwith the spirit of the game.

Ian[/quote]

I agree. To me this is a bad sign of an extremely painful game experience to come. If they want to do it while i am deploying fine but if its takes up deployment/game time I'd be fuming.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:14 am

expendablecinc wrote:but I find playing against someone like that totally outwith the spirit of the game.

Ian

I agree. To me this is a bad sign of an extremely painful game experience to come. If they want to do it while i am deploying fine but if its takes up deployment/game time I'd be fuming.[/quote]

To be honest this is not a big problum I've been playing a year and been to nine comps and this has only occoured at one. So I don't think it will take over if someone wants to write the figures down fine gives me more time to have some kind of plan

. I personally think its a waste of time but if you go blundering up to an ambush marker thats your look out and the flank march is given away after the first move anyway. I still think the FOG world is for the most part filled with an interesting bunch of friendly people well at least when the games over............

mellis1644 · Post by **mellis1644** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:35 am

DaiSho wrote:
Robert241167 wrote:On a similar note in a recent competition my opponent asked for my points per unit type and he proceeded to calculate what I had put on the table.
Yes, this is the problem with competitions. It brings out the worst kind of wargamer. Myself, in that situation, I would have said "that's not a part of the setup rules. If you want to get my army list book out you can look up what they're worth, but I'm not giving you that information. These 3 are Protected Drilled Offensive Spearmen, these are Armoured Cav LightSpear Swordsmen etc etc. Now, you work out my list points, while I go for a beer and look through the trade stalls. Back in 30 minutes"

Aren't lists checked and submitted in comp's for a reason - i.e. to ensure they are legal. Maybe if they have such an issue they should call an umpire to validate the opponents deployment vs calculating an opponents list and wasting playing time. I'm all for disclosure and do it as it helps the game, but why bother calculating an opponents points - there are other ways to see ambushes and force marches as discussed to this implies they don't trust others.

Makes you want to have a time wasting penalty, imposed by umpires, but likely the same people who don't trust opponents in this manner are those ultra competitive people who don't want to loose vs. want to play and have a fun game by all.

I guess people can cheat by putting extra troops down but geez. Reminds me of DBx where some people are afraid of opponents miscalculated break points, or which element is in which command.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:41 am

mellis1644 wrote:Makes you want to have a time wasting penalty, imposed by umpires, but likely the same people who don't trust opponents in this manner are those ultra competitive people who don't want to loose vs. want to play and have a fun game by all.

I agree 100%. I don't play in tournament since a lot of years, and this is due to two points:

I like historical match up
I really have no interest in winning a game

First point is of course dominant, but also second has big importance. I became a too much compliant player to take part in a tournament.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:06 pm

Yes, this is the problem with competitions. It brings out the worst kind of wargamer.

It's a shame if that's your experience in Oz.

I previously played DBR which tended to be very pleasant and I was slightly concerned about playing FOG as I had a negative perception of DBM competition players.

Having now played in most of the major FOG competitions in the UK I've been delighted with the positive spirit in which the games are played. And that includes playing against most of the top ranked players.

The next one will be Britcon - 6 games - and I expect to enjoy them all, win or lose. Unless of course I am the problem and I have poor self awareness?

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:07 pm

As Paul has said, I find this is the simplest way. I'm certainly happy to disclose how many points are missing after deployment. Why delay the game?

I think there are several key points involved in this discussion. Namely:

- Why do you ambush / flank march
- What are you trying to achieve

Unless you have either 11, 12, 15 or 16 BG's in your army, your opponent is going to know if you have troops missing. Following your first turn he is going to know if you have a flank march or not.

The reason for ambushes is to either put doubt into your opponent or to gain a deployment advantage by deploying further forward than usual. If your opponent asks for your points then simply put a general with the ambush - that should cause loads of confusion - if you have three generals on table then perhaps that is a BG of H Armoured, Superior Knights or perhaps some peasants with an FC - who knows?

If you are flank marching then there must be a general so simply put ambush markers down as well - creates confusion and because of the points costs then it is unlikely whether your opponent will know whether you are only flank marching or flank marching and ambushing.

At a recent competition game, one of the most succesfull flank marches I have ever had failed to arrive - why? Because my opponent would not go within 6" of the table edge where it was arriving hence giving me space and freedom to roll up the line. It is not difficult to guess which side it was on and I used this to my advantage.

If somebody asks me how many points they can see I will be quite happy to oblige and reveal that to them. If they know the ambush / flank march is real then they will react to it, which means it has already served my purpose

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:33 am

dave_r wrote: If somebody asks me how many points they can see I will be quite happy to oblige and reveal that to them. If they know the ambush / flank march is real then they will react to it, which means it has already served my purpose

I agree with Dave. Perhaps it comes after years of playing DBM, but I have no problem telling my opponent how many
points are missing and would equally expect the same from my opponent. If it's a "serious" competition, I'm probably
writing down their list anyway out of interest and they may be writing down mine too, so why be an arsehole about
giving a number that can be calculated in a few seconds?

Regards,
Peter

jlopez · Post by **jlopez** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:15 am

The only thing I refuse to disclose before deployment is whether my longbowmen have stakes or not but I will give him the year of the army and/or tell him whether they can have them. Once the first BG goes down then I inform my opponent whether they have stakes or not. As for missing points, I´d rather not waste precious time so I´d tell my opponent although I´ve never come across one who has asked for that information.

Julian

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:40 am

jlopez wrote:The only thing I refuse to disclose before deployment is whether my longbowmen have stakes or not

I think it's been discussed before that the rule "fully define" includes stakes.

Regards,
Peter

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:57 am

peterrjohnston wrote: I think it's been discussed before that the rule "fully define" includes stakes.

Regards,
Peter

Once the BG is deployed, not before.