Need Help With Matchup: Sicilian 1200 vs Hafsid Berber 1229

[darkfireslide]

As the title says, I am struggling with this matchup. I'm doing a Sandbox Campaign on Difficulty Level 4 (Duke), with a Very Small first battle size. In this scenario the Sicilian Player has 512 deployment points while the Berber AI player has 600. This has been very doable for me in many other matchups, but for some reason I can't seem to get this one to work.

For example, what from that Sicilian list (1200-1266) would you deploy against the following, for 512 points (open vs rough map welcome):

Muslim Light Horse Javelin (x4)
Muslim Light Javelin (x3)
Muslim Light Foot Archer (x1)
Muslim Massed Archer (x2)
Muslim Spearmen (x3)
Veteran Muslim Spearmen (x1)
Raw Muslim Spearmen (x2)
Muslim Cavalry (Light Spear) (x2)
Camel Lancers (x1)

My deployment was this:
Knights & Sergeants x1 (forced)
City Knights & Sergeants x2
Massed Muslim Archers x2 (1 forced)
Muslim Light Foot Archers x2 (1 forced)
Crossbowman x1
Defensive Spearmen x1
Armored Spearmen x1
Pavisiers and Crossbowmen x1
Muslim Light Horse (Javelin) x1

It seems like no matter what I do, I'm either outclassed in terms of lights, or outclassed in terms of a battle line, so more standard spear+cav tactics aren't working, but neither can I seem to gain missile superiority. I'm thinking of maybe dropping the Crossbows and Pavisiers+Crossbows, but then I have even fewer melee options, being relegated to using Arab Foot and Raw Spearmen for the rest of my line.

Any advice is appreciated. I'm really bad at these types of fights with lots of missile and light units.

[Ray552]

Thanks for posting this, tough situation.

You might consider this on an open map (Mediterranean Agricultural, in this case):



Knights and Sergeants x 2
City Knights and Sergeants x 1
Armoured Spearmen (Defensive) x 1
Spearmen (Defensive) x 1
Raw Spearmen (Defensive) x 1
Massed Muslim Archers x 3
Muslim Light Foot Archers x 2
Muslim Light Horse (Javelins) x 1

The idea is to use the knights to pin the center of the enemy line while using the weighted flank (the left, in this case) of massed archers and spearmen to turn the opposing flank. Use the archers to shoot up the enemy spearmen opposing them, then close with your spearmen for melee once you get disruptions.

I placed one spearman (here, the raw one) on the right flank to guard against cavalry flank attacks against the knights - raw spearmen do a decent job of holding off non-lancer cavalry, especially for their cost, and if you can get them on an upslope, even better. I also placed the skirmishers here to draw off the enemy skirmishers from the raw spearmen, who won't take a whole lot of arrows and javelins to the face before getting nervous...

I apologize that I did not choose the enemy army you listed - I just used the AI-generated list, which was heavy on regular defensive spearmen and light spear cavalry + skirmishers (no knights and sergeants, camel lancers, or veteran Muslim spearmen.)

I played it through twice (AI had a similar enemy list both times) and won, but it was very messy: 60-43 in one game, 61-45 in the other.

The Sicilian force I listed above would be more of an starting point for a all-purpose open terrain force you mentioned in your original post, but there are many ways to approach this - I hope others will post their proposed solutions.

Unfortunately, I have not run through rough terrain lists.

Hope this helps.

[Edit] I'm sure you know this already, but always leave an open square behind knights and lancers so they have room to fall back if they are charged by enemy infantry - otherwise they'll get trapped in melee, which is not so good if the infantry (especially offensive/defensive spears and pikes) remain steady after the charge.

Another view:

[darkfireslide]

I'm really glad I'm not the only one finding this matchup tough.

I'm going to give this a try--so far my best luck has been with using the massed archers to break up some of the spearmen before contact. This Berber army tends to run a ton of skirmishers, which is very painful to deal with when you're already outnumbered as they will basically always have a positional advantage. I hadn't considered using Knights in the center, so I'm going to see if that helps at all. The smaller battle size definitely isn't helping either.

Do you think on some maps that it might be advantageous to dismount the knights since that would reduce their vulnerability to missiles? Losing Knights to light archers and javelins is just painful. I'm also getting pretty tired of my archers getting rear charged by those light javelin cav and it actually doing something, lol.

As I play this matchup I seem to also be finding some good utility for Crossbowmen on the rougher maps, and the Pavisiers+Crossbows are good when I can afford them for fending off cavalry flank attacks, too.

UPDATE: After trying a combination of your loadout plus a rough terrain map, I was able to get a 9/50 win, using the following list:

Crossbowmen x2
Massed Muslim Archers x3
Knights & Sergeants x2
Muslim Light Foot Archers x1
Arab Foot x1
Raw Spearmen x1
Armored Spearmen x1
Defensive Spearmen x1

Putting the Knights in the center was brilliant--the spearmen and missiles ate the shot instead, allowing the Knights to simply roll over the spearmen and any cavalry the Berbers fielded. On the flanks, the massed archers and crossbows worked together perfectly, as the Crossbowmen have 50% swords to stop any cavalry or lights from charging, while the Massed Archers can lay down potent volleys on light units.

My overall strategy was this: Aim to disrupt every light unit with missiles; if you can get them to fragment and then break, great, but overall you can stay put with your own archers on the heavy flank and deter the lights that come after your line. Very pleased with that result overall, felt like I was in control of the match at all times.

[Ray552]

Excellent job with the 50-9 victory - the crossbows are great for shooting up knights and men-at-arms, should the opponent/AI bring those.

You could dismount the knights to decrease their vulnerability to missile fire, but then of course you slow them down and lose the impact POA advantage of being Knightly Lancers, and the negative cohesion test (CT) modifier to the enemy unit if it loses the impact. It would depend on the opposing force mix, terrain and whether the enemy has field fortifications or war wagons.