organic transport/motorised infantry

[sbpc1]

i've always thought the "attach transport" method used in PZC1 is interesting but .... stupid.
mainly because of the bizzare sight of infantry sitting in thier trucks helplesly whist bieng shot at. they would jump out of their trucks a head for cover, no?
lets assume the game engine can't automatically switch a unit from transport/sitting duck mode when attacked (that would be nice)
i my equipment file i've bumped up the defensive stats of trucks and halftracks but that just feels a bit rubbish.
i'm try to get to a place where "motorised infantry" is unit that one can buy or upgrade to that has assumed in-built transport.
any mods out there that implement this?
does PZC2 do it differently/better?
i can see some problems with target type, class, movement type, entrenchment.
cost, movement(points), attack and defense values could be arrived at.
i'll post a test unit and graphic here for discussion.

[PeteMitchell]

Units moving in convoy formation are much more vulnerable to enemy fire than units dug in positions... my two cents from my time in the army.

I guess that's the logic behind this...

[rubyjuno]

It's a trade off as Pete says - move slowly on foot under cover or gain the extra movement from motorised transport but become a sitting target. My units have suffered from it many times, but I think it's realistic and I wouldn't change it. I try to take calculated risks with transports and use air cover (or AA) if possible.

[sbpc1]

Wehrmacht_Inf_43 mot.png (27.76 KiB) Viewed 1983 times

here's a graphic i developed for motorised infantry
how does oob do it?
how does strategic mind do it?

[Vintage]

Reminds "Delta Units Revision" mod - its a good idea if we will have such icons for all nations and infantry types, but its not possible unfortunately...

[sbpc1]

i can do the icons. i don't think you would need it for all infantry types. it could represent just more mobile/higher priority for the transport pool units. what would the units stats be? +1 or +2 movement -1 or -2 ground defense? and some increased cost.

[captainjack]

How about a switchable unit with two or three versions.
Dismounted -as base troop type but attack or maybe defence a point or two higher if using a suitably equipped half track. Normal move speed.
Mounted - vehicle move but with passive attack something like 1/2 or 1/3 of dismounted stats.
For some types, add a third - Travelling, which has normal truck stats and 1 or 2 faster. This might work best with a modified movement file (not my strongpoint).
Build in the cost of the transport to the unit cost and you can upgrade or downgrade according to budget or conditions, and if prepared to add the extra troop types, according to the vehicle type, so for example halftrack with 75mm boosts SA and defence, with 37mm AT boosts HA, AA variants boost (passive) AA and AD.

[sbpc1]

thanks for the suggestions, captainjack

i'll experiment with those suggestions. i can, and have, created new movement types
i've created transports for aa mobile units. what? why? i hear you ask. they move 2-3 hexes and are able to attack/provide cover but to move full distance they use attached transport with passive attack values. that stops those pesky russian spaag tanks from moving 6 hexes from out of the fog to "intercept" your precious overstrength stukas

not sure i understand your last paragraph, captainjack
could you explain more?

[oltpq]

i give all loories, trucks SA negative 1 = [1], so they can defend, they dont need any ammo, they use ammo of the embarked unit. i also tested SA negative 2 = [2], which is too strong imo.

[sbpc1]

yes i've done that i think it was sa= -1 gd = 3 and ad = 6 seemed reasonable. although i'm about to try something else now based on a suggestion from captainjack and how other games similar to panzer corps do it

transportidea.png (14.75 KiB) Viewed 988 times

mobile or motorised - like a taxi service into front line combat using horses or trucks - drops you off but not so as to give the enemy "opportunity fire". not just sitting in the back of the truck while the enemy shoots at you or using the truck like its a attack helicopter. you see?

[oltpq]

the HA -2 and Ammo 1 seems quite realistic, the truck s crew probably has a Panzerfaust with them.

[sbpc1]

with the at gun what i'm imaganing is the guns are unhooked/untowed but not emplaced/totally ready but able to fire. the gun is firing not the transport personnel.

[captainjack]

While setting up an AT gun properly took a few minutes, 2pounder could be ready to fire from towed much faster. Same with French 47, German 37mm and probably most of the other 20 to 47 calibre guns. Passive HA 2 or 3 spunds reasonable, especially if it's transport class so doesn't get AT experience bonuses.
The Laffly 20 was fitted with pintle mounts for the 2 squad LMGs to provide air and ground defence, so again passive SA of 2 for planned and properly set up MGs. It certainly should be better than hastily dismounting or firing back from the truck. Not sure about AA. I gave my dragons portees transport passive AA2, but 1 would still be useful.
Either way, some form of passive attack is quite reasonable for selected unit transports and adds an extra bit of depth to distinguish units.

[sbpc1]

even if it takes half an hour to unhook and emplace/get ready - whats the time scale of the game? 1 turn = 1 day? they'd be ready to fire.
this isn't ASL.
what does everybody imagine happens with a +1 move hero on ordanance? the gun crew gain strength conditioning and are able to push the gun further that day than other gun crews? i'm imagining it as having a higher priority to call upon transport when required or "first dibs" from the transport pool.
just trying to make AT guns more useful on attack/in a panzer division. in "real life" tanks got killed by anti-tanks. a lot. not just because they got a lucky ambush either.

[captainjack]

Some nominally motorised units had less than one transport per gun - maybe enough to shift a battery or two at a time. For guns, a move hero could be an extra allocation of transport, more determined team, better organisational skills, or might represent better ability to find good firing positions, so they are more often in a position to attack.

Lighter AT guns were surprisingly mobile - they would often have a crew of five or six and quite possibly a rifle section or MG squad for defence so there's a fair number of people to push, pull and carry as needed. A few years back when I was first looking into this, I came across examples of German AT teams manhandling guns 5km or more during combat, and examples of teams showing great initiative by hitching guns to captured horses or donkeys.
So your move hero could also be an ingenious team member who can use a few tree trunks or planks to bridge soft ground or streams, lash up a ropeway to help get up a slope, or maybe a former farm worker who can cobble together a harness, capture and harness stray animals.

For other units I tend to think of move heroes as either better resourced (good combat record gets you to the head of the queue) or better mechanics and driving skills (fewer breakdowns), better route planning (works for all units), and better positional awareness, so you are more often in the right place at the right time.