How do you use war wagons?

[Ray552]

I'm playing a mirror match with Hussite (Taborites) vs German (Imperial) with one of my friends - first time I've used the war wagons in multiplayer (MP).

Against the AI, the Hussites are pretty boring - I deploy the wagons, the AI marches up to them, gets shot to pieces, runs away, piece of cake.

In MP as the Hussites, I drove the wagons to the middle of the map (open terrain) and deployed them with both flanks refused.

He asked, "Why did you deploy the wagons so early?"

I said, "Because I have no idea what the hell I'm doing? 'It seemed like a good idea at the time.'"

Now I guess he gets to pick his point of attack, since the wagons are immobile once they're deployed

How do you use the war wagons?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Deploying your wagons is like square formation for pikemen. A nice thing to have when you have to use it, but otherwise best avoided. Your undeployed wagons already are basically immune to enemy cavalry, immune to flanking, can likely fend off any charges by defensive spearmen or archers etc. So the only real melee threat that you might deploy against are good quality heavy foot. Maxing out on your cavalry is not a bad idea; the thread of a sally to the enemy rear, or throwing your men at arms forward to delay the advance while your cannons fire, can force the enemy into action.

Once they're forced to assault, yes deploying can be good. But a canny player will force you to deploy and then attack elsewhere; so in general, you'll only be able to force an attack on your deployed wagons if you're behind them with cavalry. Deploying can also be nice if your opponent spent a bunch of time trying to maneuver good infantry into contact, and then suddenly he has two bad choices - back away under fire having wasted maneuver time on a high value unit, or charge into that +100POA.

The main use of the wagons is range 1 firepower, or range 2 at most, in order to force the -1 to cohesion checks from the handguns. Dismounting is situational - good rough ground troops, but again 38% xbow 12% handgun is really only *good* at range 1. A good player will be stay aware of the possibility of dismounts and avoid surprise flanks.

[Ray552]

Excellent, thanks!

[Dux Limitis]

As how they were been used in the history

[Ray552]

Thanks for the screenshot!

[Lennard]

As how they were been used in the history

I don't think this is a good idea (in MP at least), the enemy can easily concentrate shooting on the corners and start rolling your formation from there. I think you have to stay mobile until your tightly engaged with the enemy.

[Dux Limitis]

As how they were been used in the history

I don't think this is a good idea (in MP at least), the enemy can easily concentrate shooting on the corners and start rolling your formation from there. I think you have to stay mobile until your tightly engaged with the enemy.

If you have spare points you can buy some infantry reserves,or at least,the cavalry can fill up with the hole to prevent the enemy from the breach.Infact,that means they have to buy many ranged infantry,which means reduced melee combat capabilities.

[Lennard]

As how they were been used in the history

I don't think this is a good idea (in MP at least), the enemy can easily concentrate shooting on the corners and start rolling your formation from there. I think you have to stay mobile until your tightly engaged with the enemy.

If you have spare points you can buy some infantry reserves,or at least,the cavalry can fill up with the hole to prevent the enemy from the breach.Infact,that means they have to buy many ranged infantry,which means reduced melee combat capabilities.

But the breach itself is no problem for the war wagons as they're unflankable either way. In fact it would even be advantageous if the enemy would move inside the square so you can shoot him from all sides.
And 41 pt. X-bows hold their own against dis. wagon crews, but cost less so I don't seem them being at a disadvantage here. All light infantry units (maybe excluding the javelins) are also much more cost efficient then the wagons and they shoot better...so they could just pick this formation apart one unit after the other, without any chance for the immobilised wagons to do much.
Therefore I think we disagree on this matter.

[Dux Limitis]

I don't think this is a good idea (in MP at least), the enemy can easily concentrate shooting on the corners and start rolling your formation from there. I think you have to stay mobile until your tightly engaged with the enemy.

If you have spare points you can buy some infantry reserves,or at least,the cavalry can fill up with the hole to prevent the enemy from the breach.Infact,that means they have to buy many ranged infantry,which means reduced melee combat capabilities.

But the breach itself is no problem for the war wagons as they're unflankable either way. In fact it would even be advantageous if the enemy would move inside the square so you can shoot him from all sides.
And 41 pt. X-bows hold their own against dis. wagon crews, but cost less so I don't seem them being at a disadvantage here. All light infantry units (maybe excluding the javelins) are also much more cost efficient then the wagons and they shoot better...so they could just pick this formation apart one unit after the other, without any chance for the immobilised wagons to do much.
Therefore I think we disagree on this matter.

Yes,if they start shooting at two hexes,they might shoot better than the wagon crews,but they only have five turns of ammo,and wagon crews got 34% protections provided by the wagons so,they can's overrun most of the wagons,and if you don't concentrate fire on one wagon with multiple crossbowmen units,they may lose the shooting exchange in 1v1 battle with the wagon crew(Tested,with the screenshot).Most important thing is,after all,you'll get into the close combat,and the wagons will win even they're disrupted(Most of the time).

[Lennard]

If you have spare points you can buy some infantry reserves,or at least,the cavalry can fill up with the hole to prevent the enemy from the breach.Infact,that means they have to buy many ranged infantry,which means reduced melee combat capabilities.

But the breach itself is no problem for the war wagons as they're unflankable either way. In fact it would even be advantageous if the enemy would move inside the square so you can shoot him from all sides.
And 41 pt. X-bows hold their own against dis. wagon crews, but cost less so I don't seem them being at a disadvantage here. All light infantry units (maybe excluding the javelins) are also much more cost efficient then the wagons and they shoot better...so they could just pick this formation apart one unit after the other, without any chance for the immobilised wagons to do much.
Therefore I think we disagree on this matter.

Yes,if they start shooting at two hexes,they might shoot better than the wagon crews,but they only have five turns of ammo,and wagon crews got 34% protections provided by the wagons so,they can's overrun most of the wagons,and if you don't concentrate fire on one wagon with multiple crossbowmen units,they may lose the shooting exchange in 1v1 battle with the wagon crew(Tested,with the screenshot).Most important thing is,after all,you'll get into the close combat,and the wagons will win even they're disrupted(Most of the time).

But thats the main problem with this formation, isn't it?
There will be no 1 on 1 shooting duell. The enemy can simply mass his ranged units on the corner units and out-shoot them. You don't even need to go into close range with your regular X-Bows. 3-5 steady X-Bows long-range shooting at 1 wagon and the wagon will disrupt more often then not. Throw in a light canon or handgunners for the extra cohesion test modifier and you will get even better results.
And thats only if you don't use light troops, with which you can even safely go into close range since wagons only have bad shooting capabilities against them.
If you do so, you will break one wagon after the other and eventually win the game. Once ammo runs low, it will of cause get harder, but you don't need to beat every Hussite unit and you might get some disrupts and fragmentations through wagons failing at cohesion test, when their neibourghing units break.

But aside all of that: What does the Hussite player gain from using this square formation?

[Dux Limitis]

But the breach itself is no problem for the war wagons as they're unflankable either way. In fact it would even be advantageous if the enemy would move inside the square so you can shoot him from all sides.
And 41 pt. X-bows hold their own against dis. wagon crews, but cost less so I don't seem them being at a disadvantage here. All light infantry units (maybe excluding the javelins) are also much more cost efficient then the wagons and they shoot better...so they could just pick this formation apart one unit after the other, without any chance for the immobilised wagons to do much.
Therefore I think we disagree on this matter.

Yes,if they start shooting at two hexes,they might shoot better than the wagon crews,but they only have five turns of ammo,and wagon crews got 34% protections provided by the wagons so,they can's overrun most of the wagons,and if you don't concentrate fire on one wagon with multiple crossbowmen units,they may lose the shooting exchange in 1v1 battle with the wagon crew(Tested,with the screenshot).Most important thing is,after all,you'll get into the close combat,and the wagons will win even they're disrupted(Most of the time).

But thats the main problem with this formation, isn't it?
There will be no 1 on 1 shooting duell. The enemy can simply mass his ranged units on the corner units and out-shoot them. You don't even need to go into close range with your regular X-Bows. 3-5 steady X-Bows long-range shooting at 1 wagon and the wagon will disrupt more often then not. Throw in a light canon or handgunners for the extra cohesion test modifier and you will get even better results.
And thats only if you don't use light troops, with which you can even safely go into close range since wagons only have bad shooting capabilities against them.
If you do so, you will break one wagon after the other and eventually win the game. Once ammo runs low, it will of cause get harder, but you don't need to beat every Hussite unit and you might get some disrupts and fragmentations through wagons failing at cohesion test, when their neibourghing units break.

But aside all of that: What does the Hussite player gain from using this square formation?

What does the Hussite player gain from using this square formation?

Well,I think it's way more historical accurate(Although the historical formations are not always the best),that's the first reason that I'm using this formation.Sure,I can place them in line like some normal units or do some maneuver tricks then deploy them,but if I do that,they'll give me nervous because I knew what they were been used in history.When I'm playing other armies,if I know what kind of tactic they were employed in history,then I'll use them,even the terrain is not suitable for them.Like the Swiss,when I'm playing them I always divide the army into vorhut,gewalthut and Nachhut,sure,there're always have other better tactics or tricks,but I don't like to use them if they're not historical accurate.

Second,if you're playing against the AI or the average MP opponent,their performance is not that bad like you said.

[Zoidfarb]

When should you deploy?
Is deploying worth it?

[tyronec]

When should you deploy?
Is deploying worth it?

It is situational, as others have said once you deploy you have lost mobility and offensive capability. The effective use of wagons is their firepower (which is best at one tile range) and their melee power which sometimes means getting flank charges in (which risks leaving the wagons if dismounted), and to optimise both of these it is best to be mounted. Also the enemy could pull back away from dismounted wagons and concentrate on the rest of your army.
There may be some occasions when it is worthwhile to block off part of the battlefield if you can win the battle with the rest of your army, but in general it is going to be better to stay mounted and stay mobile.

Against the AI it is different as it may assault static wagons, have not tried this out.

[Ray552]

Against the AI it is different as it may assault static wagons, have not tried this out.

The AI will assault static (deployed) wagons, with minimal preparatory missile or artillery fire

It will even charge with defensive spearmen, who often disrupt on impact (as they have no impact POA if charging non-defensive spearmen, and are also down either -25 or -100 depending on whether the war wagons are undeployed or deployed.)

So if you are playing a custom battle as the Hussites vs the AI, it seems that a good tactic is to set up in a box or a U-shaped formation as mentioned above, drive towards the enemy, stop when about six squares away from them, rotate the war wagons 90 degrees the next turn, then deploy them the turn after that (at least the ones on the face of the formation closest to the enemy, you might keep the flank wagons mobile to respond to threats.)

By that time the front line of the enemy will have marched up to you and will be nice and ready to get shot in the face with your point-blank gunfire and crossbow volleys. "For what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful."

[rbodleyscott]

stop when about six squares away from them, rotate the war wagons 90 degrees the next turn, then deploy them the turn after that

You don't need to turn them 90 degrees the turn before Deploying them. They can turn 90 degrees as part of the Deploy Wagons move.

[Ray552]

stop when about six squares away from them, rotate the war wagons 90 degrees the next turn, then deploy them the turn after that

You don't need to turn them 90 degrees the turn before Deploying them. They can turn 90 degrees as part of the Deploy Wagons move.

Thanks for the correction - then you can get even closer before deploying, maybe four squares?

[wzfcns]

As how they were been used in the history

From this perspective, these wagons should not have been able to move around the battlefield historically? They are so large that they don't look like they could be pushed by soldiers, were they pulled by oxen to position positions before the engagement?
The wagon in the game is used more like this：

[rbodleyscott]

As how they were been used in the history

From this perspective, these wagons should not have been able to move around the battlefield historically? They are so large that they don't look like they could be pushed by soldiers, were they pulled by oxen to position positions before the engagement?

They were pulled by horses, as depicted in the game. They usually formed a wagonberg against most opponents, but did attack with their wagons sometimes, notably at Kutna Hora.

As Dux Limitis says, a wagonberg works fine against the AI, because the AI behaves like their historical opponents did.

We can't make players be as arrogant/stupid as the Hussites' historical opponents, so forming a wagonberg does not work as well against players.

[wzfcns]

As how they were been used in the history

From this perspective, these wagons should not have been able to move around the battlefield historically? They are so large that they don't look like they could be pushed by soldiers, were they pulled by oxen to position positions before the engagement?

They were pulled by horses, as depicted in the game. They usually formed a wagonberg against most opponents, but did attack with their wagons sometimes, notably at Kutna Hora.

As Dux Limitis says, a wagonberg works fine against the AI, because the AI behaves like their historical opponents did.

We can't make players be as arrogant/stupid as the Hussites' historical opponents, so forming a wagonberg does not work as well against players.

This is quite interesting. I remember Osprey had a book on the Hussite War, but unfortunately they only seem to publish a series on WW2 in China.

[oscarius]

I would hardly ever bother to deploy them. Even mobile they can out-melee 99% of units in the game.

So for 49 points you've got a unit that can move, shoot, smash through more expensive (and unable to shoot) knights and good quality infantry, fortify itself and (if all that wasn't enough..) dismount into a formidable medium foot unit. Unless you've got some Swiss pikes (though those cost 154 points instead of 49) bearing down on the position there's almost never a reason to fortify your medieval panzers and against most lists I'm not sure how you could possibly lose.

Seriously I'm pretty amazed that they were allowed to be released so insanely strong in melee when mobile. 1 point cheaper than average lightly protected Welsh spearmen or 1 point more than a block of raw pikemen

I think on the whole this game is pretty well balanced but the war wagons need a serious re-think. Either should cost way more or (the better solution I think) have their melee capability drastically reduced to force players to fortify them more often.