Changes to the Unit System

[Kaa303]

I have tried doing exactly that with excel and libreoffice but the game breaks with a modified file (settings reset, dialog boxes are messed up)... perhaps it's a matter of encoding language/regional settings? Any tips?

[Kaa303]

As much as I like the game I am struggling to make sense of the relative speeds of the units. To keep things comparable I am referring to road speed (i.e. movement cost per tile = 1). This time I am not even going into land vs air...

Couple of examples:

- we have some tank units with 4-5 movement points while regular (i.e. not heavy) infantry have 6. Among those we have the FT-17 from WWI with 5 mp which was actually really slow - wiki gives 7kmh max - the whole operational unit would probably move even slower - so this one could be right... but the Matildas with 4 mp which the game depicts as even slower than the FT-17 while wiki says "low average speed of about 6 mph (9.7 km/h) on desert terrain and 16 miles per hour (26 km/h) on roads." - even the lower value would be 2 times marching speed... (which in the game is 6 mp!). Some other examples are the T-28, KV-85, Churchills which were known to be rather slow... but slower then infantry while moving on road?

- most tank units have 8 mp which is somewhat faster than infantry which may be right (especially that we are talking about operational movement of whole tank units with their logistic support and not individual vehicles in a tactical context) but would Firefly (6 mp) units be slower than those with regular Shermans (8 mp)? Would their different ammo hamper their logistics? Would Tiger units be slower than Pz III / Pz IV units? It seems the equipment itself had similar speeds, obviously a heavier tank would be more tricky to move on some roads / bridges etc... But still - would Firefly or Tiger units move on road only as fast (as slow) as marching infantry ?

If we assume that infantry moves at 5 kmh, knowing that it has 4 to 6 mp we could approximate that 1 mp represents 1kmh when it comes to road movement. but then we arrive at a conclusion that the fastest tank units could cover 8 to 10 km per hour which seems not much...

Did anyone try to analyze / mod this in a holistic and balanced manner?
Or perhaps I am wrong and a different logic should be appiled?

The chart below shows number of units in categories divided into mp groups - I filtered only US, UK, German and Japanese.

Clipboard01.jpg (166.51 KiB) Viewed 1679 times

[StuccoFresco]

I have tried doing exactly that with excel and libreoffice but the game breaks with a modified file (settings reset, dialog boxes are messed up)... perhaps it's a matter of encoding language/regional settings? Any tips?

I assumed you had prior experience in modding, I'll include more details.

First off, check general modding advice threads; I'm used to modify files in a separate mod from the original game, I don't remember if something changes when modifying the base game.

Aside from that, units.csv is encoded. I open it with LibreOffice, with Unicode (UTF-8) checking ";" as a separator. MAKE SURE TO SAVE AND CLOSE THE FILE BEFORE LAUNCHING THE GAME. What you are experiencing I usually experience when I forgot to close the file before launching.

[Kaa303]

It works thank you. Probably had left the file open. I have tripled aircraft movement while dividing fuel by 3 (and rounding up). Seems more natural in-game. Also testing reducing infantry movement to 4 (except cavalry which stays at 6)

[StuccoFresco]

Glad to know, have fun!

[Erik2]

In some of my own mods I doupled air movement and halved fuel.
Interesting to see someoone taking that thought even further.
I have also a naval mod with detailed ship class movements.
I think both air and naval units (and gameplay) would benefit from this kind of treatment.

[Kaa303]

Any thoughts on relative speed between land units? Tanks vs infantry? Infantry vs cavalry? Sherman vs Firefly? Guess that depends on what unit scale we assume - the difference between a single vehicle and a single infantryman is obvious, between types of companies, brigades or divisions - probably less so...

[StuccoFresco]

In some of my own mods I doupled air movement and halved fuel.
Interesting to see someoone taking that thought even further.
I have also a naval mod with detailed ship class movements.
I think both air and naval units (and gameplay) would benefit from this kind of treatment.

What did you change with naval units? I'm interested since I made my own naval system when I developed my second custom campaign.

[StuccoFresco]

Any thoughts on relative speed between land units? Tanks vs infantry? Infantry vs cavalry? Sherman vs Firefly? Guess that depends on what unit scale we assume - the difference between a single vehicle and a single infantryman is obvious, between types of companies, brigades or divisions - probably less so...

I GREATLY modified both the amount of movement points between different units AND movement types. As you said, it's ridicolous to give armored/mechanized units almost the same mobility as foot infantry.

In my mod, units represent regiments so they are made of both infantry and vehicles, but still I consider armored regiments having truck-mounted infantry for increased mobility. This leads to armored units having more than double the movement range as foot infantry, making them much more useful at a strategic/operational level. Cavalry and motorized infantry, similarily, have great operational value thanks to their speed, even if they aren't able to defeat a foot infantry Regiment on their own. As it was in reality, a very mobile force can outright dictate the tempo of a battle by maneuvering around a stronger but much slower force.

This of course is only exploitable properly through careful map design: you can't outmaneuver an opponent if the map is too small or the terrain forces you to go through a chokepoint. Similarily, motorized infantry benefits greatly from roads and struggles in mud or snow, etc. The defender is encouraged to make the most of geography to avoid encirclements, and keeping a mobile reserve is similarily vital if you fear a flanking move.

[Erik2]

I have attached the units- and english_mod-files to this post.
It is from an as yet unpublished Naval Mod. This presently includes 1940-42Royal Navy, Regia Marina and a couple of LW unit mods.
There are a lot of changes to naval/air unit data here. I used the stock unit models as templates, ie the RN destroyer classes use their individual pics/3D.
It maybe include earlier created US/Jap unit mods as well)..

[cutydt02]

Not so sure but units movement speed isn’t just base on realistic cruise velocity.
Like, with full equipment, a infatryman division shouldn’t march further than about 40 km per day. Any vehicles beside Maus/E100 can do it in matter of hours without refuel.
But every vehicle has a rate of unreliable accidents, that makes them much more slower than theory in long run, or simply abaddons the unlucky for good. They also need to be maintained and resupply while the logistic team cant move as fast.
“ghost” division, like what rommel did in battle of France, when a tank division moved at full speed and completely cut off themself, isnt popular. Much more problem than just logistic, flank protection and occupation, any tanks division should move as fast as infantryman or at least mechanized boys.
=> that’s extractly why most tanks in game just move at speed of 6 (normal infantryman) or 8 (with halftrack/truck).

[terminator]

I had in the idea for a moment to make a version of this game like Strategic Command by reducing the movement and range of units but too much work...

[Kaa303]

“ghost” division, like what rommel did in battle of France, when a tank division moved at full speed and completely cut off themself, isnt popular. Much more problem than just logistic, flank protection and occupation, any tanks division should move as fast as infantryman or at least mechanized boys.
=> that’s extractly why most tanks in game just move at speed of 6 (normal infantryman) or 8 (with halftrack/truck).

Agreed but don't you think that it should be up to the commander/player to decide whether he wants to risk exposing flanks or straining logistics? If we are to consider operational mobility of a unit and not individual vehicles than why different types would have different speeds? And why would an armoured unit with M4s or PzIVs be only 1/3 faster than unmotorized infantry? What were the actual historical movement capabilities of such units?

[Erik2]

I found this tidbit of interesting info on reddit. Looks like good starting points.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/com ... _vehicles/

The Wehrmacht used the following guideline for marching speeds under good conditions (weather/roads etc.) in 40/41:

Infantry: 5-6 km/h.

Bicycle: 12 km/h.

Horse-mounted: 7-10 km/h.

Armored cars: 50 km/h.

Motorcycle: 40 km/h.

Motorized: 30 km/h.

Armor: 20 km/h.

Infantry Division on road: 4 km/h.

Infantry Division off road: 3 km/h.

Daily march performance:

Infantry Division: 30-40 km.

Motorized Infantry Division: 150+ km.

Amored Division (tracked parts): 100-150 km.

Armored Division (wheeld parts): 200-300 km.

Cavalry Brigade: 50-60 km.

[Kaa303]

Daily march performance:

Infantry Division: 30-40 km.

Motorized Infantry Division: 150+ km.

Amored Division (tracked parts): 100-150 km.

Armored Division (wheeld parts): 200-300 km.

Cavalry Brigade: 50-60 km.

This is quite interesting indeed. I have had a look at units.csv in PanzerCorps2 and OoB - flitering only German units for clarity and while in OoB we have the following movement speeds:
- heavy infantry:4
- infantry:6
- cavalry:6
- tanks: mostly 6-8
- recon: mostly 10

then in PC2 we see:
- heavy infantry:2 [4 translating to OoB terms]
- infantry:3 [6 OoB]
- cavalry:5 [10 OoB]
- tanks: mostly 5 [10 OoB]
- recon: mostly 8 [16 OoB]

From this it seems that PC2 is much closer to reality with relative movement speeds... Effectively this makes OoB motorized/armored units relatively less mobile than PC2 units. Interesting that OoB with its supply system has less spread in movement speeds between unmotorized and motorized/armored - speed being crucial for encirclement manouvers and rapid advances leading to interesting decisions whether to risk overextending supply lines or move slower.

[Erik2]

Note that paved road (especially) gives a (too?) big boos to infantry movement. Then again, roads does not work in dense woods, jungle, mountain and maybe other difficult terrain.
There may be other factors that complicate comparisons.

[Kaa303]

Don't roads simply decrease movement cost in from 2 to 1 (open terrain)?

[Erik2]

Infantry really behaves like road-runners on paved roads. Beep-beep
Even some support weapons like light AA/AT moves really fast.

[ColonelKurtz]

As we have filters for Land, Naval and Air, could we also have nationality filters, as would be very useful in the Allies campaigns. Sick of having to scroll through all the Americans to get to my British when there is a combined operation

[Erik2]

As we have filters for Land, Naval and Air, could we also have nationality filters, as would be very useful in the Allies campaigns. Sick of having to scroll through all the Americans to get to my British when there is a combined operation

Second that. Would be useful in the editor as well.
And maybe a button to force unit sort by type. At least the editor gets messy after, well, editing units.