Carthage is the weakest of the major nations. Maybe need upgrade?

[Alex351]

Carthage turned out to be a very weak nation, unable to oppose anything to Rome and Hellenic factions.
One of its minus -50% of manpower significantly exceeds all its advantages. For this, he has a 30% comercial bonus and access to mercenaries. A commercial bonus is good, but Carthage can't improve it. Then how the Hellenic nations can improve commercial bonus with Stoas and have more income. And It's really bad with the mercenaries. Mercenaries are of average quality and are not capable of fighting with phalanxes or legions. Moreover, the price for them is progressively increasing and even if there is money, it is impossible to hire a large number.
Consider the other advantages of Carthage:
1) Magnificent heavy ships, but everything again rests on manpower. At best, you will be able to maintain only one such fleet of full frontage 16 ships and it will eat up all of yours manpower. He just won't have time everywhere.
2) Gothon - expensive useless building, without bonus on tar better have Major harbor, need 1 Great Gothon in Carthage, you won't have manpower to hire ships anywhere else anyway.
3) Trade settlement - usually, before you collect all the bonuses for him, the population will become 12 and he will disappear.
3) Temples only good buildings without a catch.

Maybe Carthage needs to be improved? Who plays multiplayer games please write your opinion.

[Gray Fox]

What was your strategy? Could you do this:
viewtopic.php?f=563&t=97844
Even a human Roman player won't be able to absorb a blitz before turn 48.

[Alex351]

Against AI, I don't see any problems playing for anyone. Rome can just be bought.
In this AAR you have one good army and it looks like even without a fleet. When you capture half the world, it's unlikely you'll even be able to assemble the 2nd such army.
And by that time there will be more than one enemy in MP game.
Rome with only 2 provinces will gather 2 such armies + fleet.

[Pocus]

Mercenaries are fueled with money, not manpower. You don't recruit and use them exactly as regular troops, it is better to do a kind of "burst", hoard money, then recruit a massive mercenary army with a goal in mind. Don't mind the losses and disband the weakest and less experimented once the objective is achieved. So start&stop somehow.

[cptracks]

I encounter this all the time, so I will put my response out there. Every faction has strength and weaknesses. One available tool that many players seem to neglect is diplomacy. In one game I was Britonae. I needed money, Carthage had a ton but needed manpower, which I could supply. Voila two problems solved and two surprisingly effective factions, not to mention a lot of fun.

[ArcSine]

I encounter this all the time, so I will put my response out there. Every faction has strength and weaknesses. One available tool that many players seem to neglect is diplomacy. In one game I was Britonae. I needed money, Carthage had a ton but needed manpower, which I could supply. Voila two problems solved and two surprisingly effective factions, not to mention a lot of fun.

Not to mention, money is the easiest way to improve AI relations.

I've also been wanting to try out the strategy of turning corsica and sardinia into a military/food resupply depot.
Then just devasting all Italian economy with the most irritating blockades and surprise merc invasions.
Would work better on multiplayer as warscore isn't such a big deal.

[Alex351]

An example from a real MP game:
I played for Carthage the other major nations dropped the game. I have captured all of Africa with Egypt and Italy with Rome.
My opponent in the middle of the game was Athens. By that time they had captured Greece and Asia Minor. Empires were roughly equal in size, the main provinces were well built up.
At the same time, Athens had an income in money(Stoas) and manpower(Neosoikos) more than twice as much as mine. Better Troops Phalanx vs Elephants, Heavy cavalry, An infinite number of mercenaries for 30 coins.
I had a better one invincible fleet to the entire Mediterranean sea.

Well, what are the advantages of Carthage here? That in order to hire Hoplite mercenaries in Egypt, I must first disband them in Italy and then hire them everywhere at once?
To play against an equal or even stronger opponent when he has twice as many resources and you didn't have any advantages, and I shamefully gave up in that game without waiting for war wearness to finish me off.
And it's not even a major nation. if a major nation declares war on Carthage in an MP game, usually the player quits the game immediately. Carthage does not even need to be beaten, it is enough to wait until he receives a fine for manpower in war wearness and it will crumble by itself.

[Gray Fox]

One problem is that you are using elephants. Make an army like this:

[Surt]

So 16 heavy/sacred, 8 cavalry and 16 skirmishers. A "cheap" but efficient army, can cover any front width in depth of at least 2 rows, backed by missile troops, with a few reserve in case it needs to fight a 2nd round.

If you can afford it you can improve it a bit, cost might explode as the special units increase in cost for each extra unit.

heavy infantry -> sacred band
skirmishers -> Corsican/Sicilian/Other improved skirmisher -> Archers
cavalry -> improved cavalry (provincial cavalry might be better) example Germania superior cavalry -> cataphracts
a few cavalry/skirmishers -> light cavalry for better flanking attacks.

check the stats of the units (mouse over + ctrl) to be sure its better

Armies that need to siege needs either to replace some infantry with siegers.
Also fighting in hills/forest would be improved with some units with that terrain specialty.

I usually add 2-4 elephants to the army when playing Carthage to roleplay it a bit

[ynshen]

Add 6 mercenaries. Charthego has good mercenary anyway.

[Swuul]

Personally I think the manpower malus and commercial boost should be same number. I would prefer -50% manpower and +50% commercial bonus, to make the unique carthaginian playing experience (as per Pocus words: hoard money, then recruit a massive mercenary army, dismiss (most of) the army after goals are reached) a bit easier to pull off a bit more often (because fact is, Carthage is quite easily stomp-rolled in MP games, and even in SP it is not the easiest nation to play). Though I could see benefits also from a -30% manpower and +30% commerce, as it would allow to recruit "regular" troops more easily in time of desperation, but I am not sure if the unique feeling for Carthage would be there anymore then.

[Surt]

The starting mercs are not good at least in Persia DLC.

[ynshen]

Attack 5, RD 5, HP 3

Hellenistic are 432

The starting mercs are not good at least in Persia DLC.

[ynshen]

The problem is, Carthage's mercs don't have "besieger" perk, so big numbers of them can't help so much in frontal assult. So the best way to use, is to recruit them for taken certain strategic region or for defence in deserts and disband them at once (may some of 7 manpower eating warriors die with them too).

The second problem, you need to stay at a glory administration and have training grounds as many as possible to make the rotation efficient. That's not easy. Carthage has so many less developed regions, low in production, unable to form province and the pops are not really semitics.

Good players can fly with Carthage, newcomers will be struggling with it.

Personally I think the manpower malus and commercial boost should be same number. I would prefer -50% manpower and +50% commercial bonus, to make the unique carthaginian playing experience (as per Pocus words: hoard money, then recruit a massive mercenary army, dismiss (most of) the army after goals are reached) a bit easier to pull off a bit more often (because fact is, Carthage is quite easily stomp-rolled in MP games, and even in SP it is not the easiest nation to play). Though I could see benefits also from a -30% manpower and +30% commerce, as it would allow to recruit "regular" troops more easily in time of desperation, but I am not sure if the unique feeling for Carthage would be there anymore then.

[geoffreyg]

I have completed two games as Carthage in MP.
One I won comfortably. The second went to 360 turns and I lost narrowly vs Lysimachus who had conquered Macedonia, the Antigonids, the Seleucids etc.
I think it is fine as a faction although of course one needs to compensate for downsides and play to one's upsides.