Is this the end of PC gaming?

[ste]

XBOX 360 specs look absolutely amazing... for those who haven't seen check this lovely lot out...

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU 3 symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each
2 hardware threads per core; 6 hardware threads total
1 VMX-128 vector unit per core; 3 total
128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread
1 MB L2 cache


CPU Game Math Performance 9 billion dot product operations per second

Custom ATI Graphics Processor 500 MHz
10 MB embedded DRAM
48-way parallel floating-point dynamically-scheduled shader pipelines
Unified shader architecture

Polygon Performance 500 million triangles per second

Pixel Fill Rate 16 gigasamples per second fillrate using 4X MSAA

Shader Performance 48 billion shader operations per second

Memory 512 MB GDDR3 RAM
700 MHz DDR
Unified memory architecture

Memory Bandwidth 22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
21.6 GB/s front-side bus

Overall System Floating-Point Performance 1 TFLOP

Storage Detachable and upgradeable 20 GB hard drive
12X dual-layer DVD-ROM
Memory unit support starting at 64 MB

I/O Support for up to 4 wireless game controllers
3 USB 2.0 ports
2 memory unit slots

Optimized for Online Instant, out-of-the-box access to Xbox Live features, including Xbox Live Marketplace for downloadable content, Gamer Profile for digital identity and voice chat to talk to friends while playing games, watching movies or listening to music
Built in Ethernet Port
Wi-Fi Ready: 802.11 A, B and G
Video Camera Ready


Digital Media Support Support for DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD, JPEG Photo CD
Stream media from portable music devices, digital cameras, Windows XP PCs
Rip music to Xbox 360 hard drive
Custom playlists in every game
Windows Media Center Extender built in
Interactive, full screen 3D visualizers

HD Game Support All games supported at 16:9, 720p and 1080i, anti-aliasing
Standard definition and high definition video output supported

Audio Multichannel surround sound output
Supports 48 KHz 16-bit audio
320 independent decompression channels
32-bit audio processing
Over 256 audio channels

System Orientation Stands vertically or horizontally

Customizable Face Plates Interchangeable to personalize the console


and it looks lovely to boot...

so what does everyone think? with that kind of power do you think it will eradicate the PC as a gaming platform? or will the PC hold out?

[efthimios]

First of all I find the looks of it very bad. I prefer the old xbox than this.

I have a question, why the fudge only 10MBs ram for the graphics card?

Is this and the rest of the next generation of game consoles going to be the end of the PC as gaming platform? I seriously doubt it. PCs are not just gaming platforms, don't forget that. Many people will prefer to have one machine for everything, and since they will have to have a PC for most of the other things, they will have it for gaming as well. Also, there are still games that the PC is better for.
I also prefer to have a PC to play my games than having to go to the living room or wherever is the big screen in a house to play games.
There are already many million (billion?) of PCs out there. Though not all are bought for gaming, most of them can be used for that, and though they are not able toplay Halo 3, they are still good enough for most of the people.
There might be a few less big companies making games for PC, but not to an extend it will threaten the PC as a gaming platform.
The PC as an architecture has too many good things about it to be washed aside for now. Perhaps in a couple of generations (gaming console generations), there might be a serious problem, but not yet and not from the XBOX 360.

IMHO.

[sum1won]

Yeah, can you imagine playing a Heroes of Might and Magic on an Xbox?!

[bodidley]

The specs for the new Xbox are nice, but what are they compared to a state-of-the-art PC? The fact is, you can get a deal when you buy a computer for cheap upgrades, and the graphics cards prices always come down from their super expensive starting costs to something fairly reasonable (depending on your definition of "reasonable", of course), so the super expensive initial cost of the new Xbox isn't neccesarily worth it anyhow, because your game choices are restricted by the careful compatibility negotiations that go on in the game console developing to publishing process, and your machine will eventually be obsolete.

The latest and greatest in PCs go "VRROOOM VROOOM", and eventually the everyday PC catches up. I don't see consoles surpassing PCs in computing power anytime soon. PCs are starting to get so powerful that some models are freakin' liquid cooled. In the distant future, computing technology could be so fast that no one would need a console to get great graphics.

Right now, scientists are working on a way to harness the different quantum states of electrons for the purpose of making calculations. I'd explain, but not only is my understanding of the process vague, my vague understanding is complicated enough to make explanation difficult. Basically you're going from electricity going on and off (in a specific pattern, and then representing something) to infinite calculation possiblities from a single damn electron... Mind-boggling. I bet that's a ways away though.

Back to the subject at hand. While consoles are getting cooler, they'll never outdo PCs.

[ste]

Yeah, quantum computing is the next stage... i thought i'd explain a little for those who are interested...

A guy named Erwin Schrodinger, (nobel prize winner in 1933) came up with a short story as it were to explain quantum theory. The story goes something like there is a cat in a box, and it can take 1 of 2 states, either dead or alive. But when the box is closed, we do not know what state the cat is in, so it is said to enter a superposition of both states at this time. That is essentially quantum theory... lol, "Super position is a way of describing an object when it is out of site, and in a state of ambiguity".

Another way of explaining it is that (this will be a little easier to grasp if you've seen that movie with Gwyneth Paltrow, erm... sliding doors), that at one particular time where there are two (or more options) the object will cause the universe to split into 2 (or more) miltiverses... (this theory is a little quirky, but its a little easy to get your head around that superpositions).

As you can probrably imagine, if they developed a quantum computer system it would have huge a huge impact on what could be done with games, as well as make programming them 10 times harder! It would also blow all forms on encryption wide open. At currently computing power to break into an RSA encrypted message, it would something like 6 times the current age of the universe to do so, at which time your secret is probrably not that important anyway. By using a quantum computer, you can send each attempt at a calculation into a sperate multiverse, and return the result, this will allow an infintely strong RSA cipher to be broken in 1 step of computer time...

(They have already thought of a Quantum Cipher, which is 100% impenetrable, but I shant digress into it).

There have only been 2 quantum computer programs written. I think one was by a chap at Bell Laboritories, which factored numbers very quickly, and the other was to search a infinite list at speed. Obiviously there is no way of knowing if these things can work as there is no Quantum computer yet to test them on! (What a shame!).

The theory of having a quantum computer was first stumbled upon by a man named David Deutsch, who reasoned that a computer operates at such a microscopic level (perhaps the level where classic physical theory transits into Quantum theory) that maybe Quantum theory could be applied to computer practises to produce infinately fast computer systems... Maybe all those sci-movies you watching in the 80's set in 2010 might actually happen

LOL... rant, rant.... just find it interesting, and yes back to the subject at hand...

Its not the specification its just the way the programmers push the hardware thats important half the time. In a PC there is not as much insentive to push the hardware to its absolute knees as there is a resource restricted console. PC programmers have to shared their resources with about 30+ other processes, (about 1000 threads of execution), whilst console developers get the entire resource to themselves. Also the developers know what specification everyone is running, so they can program right up til breaking point. The classic argument is, Halo2 compared to Half Life2, the way Halo2 runs on what resources it has is nothing less than astounding, Half Life2 whilst it looks and plays amazingly does require alot more resources, etc.

So the argument is as broad as it is long really, PC may always be one step ahead hardware wise, but console has the added advantage of being able to be pushed further... it'll probrably end up in a stalemate, as per usual

[duncan]

The story goes something like there is a cat in a box, and it can take 1 of 2 states, either dead or alive. But when the box is closed, we do not know what state the cat is in, so it is said to enter a superposition of both states at this time

Not sure about it. Let's suppose the cat has two possible states, let's say:

S1: alive
S2: dead


The cat is in the following state (because we can not observe it without interactuating with him and, therefore, changing that state. For example, to see the cat we need a photon on the cat, and the photon will change the actual state of the cat):

S = AS1 + BS2

S, being the actual state of the cat.

The cat will be in S1 or S2 state, NOT in BOTH at the same time. The A coefficient means the probability we have to see the cat in S1 state (90 %, meaning that 9 of 10 times the cat will show the S1 state) and the B coefficient is the probability for the cat to have S2 state (1 out of 10 times cat will have S2 state), but the probability to have BOTH states at same time is 0. S is the state of the cat, which it's actually a combination of both S1 and S2, but S is a mathematical entity. The physical ("real") state of the cat will be S1 OR S2, not S1 AND S2.

[efthimios]

The story goes something like there is a cat in a box, and it can take 1 of 2 states, either dead or alive. But when the box is closed, we do not know what state the cat is in, so it is said to enter a superposition of both states at this time.

Why would it make a difference if we know the state the cat is in? It shouldn't change the actual state of the cat as alive or dead. It is not alive or dead depending on if we know it, but regardless of it.

[bodidley]

In quantum physics we often don't know what the actual state of the particles or position of the particles is (and by often I mean always, and by always I mean never... ), but we can calculate probabilities, and by "we" I mean other people who are really into that kind of thing. Perhaps the cat in the box is a bad explanation, but it's the one you always hear (and by you I mean me).

[duncan]

In quantum physics we often don't know what the actual state of the particles or position of the particles is

In fact, it IS possible to know exactly what the position of the particle is, but losing in the proccess ALL the information about the momentum (or velocity, if you prefer) of that given particle. That's Heisenberg (I think). You can have a particle in a box: you don't know ist postion, so you have to "see" it. You can only see it if you throw a photon at it, but when the photon arrives, this paticle will absorbe it and therefore gain energy, therefore changing its kinetic energy (and its speed). So you know the (exact) position via photon, but losing all the information you may have about speed.

Why would it make a difference if we know the state the cat is in? It shouldn't change the actual state of the cat as alive or dead. It is not alive or dead depending on if we know it

Nice remark. Maybe the important thing is that we are mere observers and that's from where we get our conception of reality. If we know the cat is alive, then the cat's actually alive. If we can't say if it's alive or dead, then it does not matter if the cat is alive or not, because we can't get ant information from it (change cat for some useful thing, like an electron)

Post of the Month!!!!! XBox transformed in Qunatum mechanics in only six posts!!!!!!!!!!

[ste]

The story goes something like there is a cat in a box, and it can take 1 of 2 states, either dead or alive. But when the box is closed, we do not know what state the cat is in, so it is said to enter a superposition of both states at this time

Not sure about it. Let's suppose the cat has two possible states, let's say:

S1: alive
S2: dead


etc. etc.

*shrugs* im just regeretating a well known abstract used by text books, etc to explain quantum theory... it is often said that you cannot truely have a grasp of quantum theory if it does not make your head spin to think about it

[duncan]

I'm alive, give me some food!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[efthimios]

Do you know if the XBOX360 (stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid name btw IMO), will be compatible with Xbox games?
Will PS3 be with PS2 and/or PS1?
I know that the new Nintendo will be with the Gamecube, which is a very nice bonus.

[honvedseg]

A couple of points: First, what happens next year, or the following year, when BOTH the console and the PC are outdated? You upgrade the PC, and throw away the console. Second, what does a license cost to develop a game for a console? Thousands? Tens of thousands? What does the license cost to do a PC game? Nothing! As usual, the console market will continue, as will the PC.

It's a good thing that fantasy fans haven't gotten into quantum theory, or they'd have introduced a third possible state, the "undead cat".

[efthimios]

BTW, very nice photo. Are you an artist?

[duncan]

I've been looking at some previews and it does not mention anything about backwards compatibility of the XBox360. And considering Micro$oft's past achievments in terms of compability (Office, Windows)...


P.S. The photograph is mine, but I'm terrible at it, no artist in me, it turned out good by accident . I'm weather man (no jokes) .

[efthimios]

I don't know any "man" jokes.

You are the first weather person I meet. Nice.

Is PS2 compatible with PS1? If yes then perhaps PS3 will be too?
I think MS would be stupid to not have it compatible with its first generation. Even if they do not say it till it is released, it would be better for them I think.

[ste]

I would assume backwards compatibity is on the cards, microsoft might release an emulator that you can pay for perhaps... who knows, anything is possible really...

Yes PS2 is backwards compatible, and I would assume PS3 will follow suit (the PS2 has a co-processor which handles PS1 stuff).

Nice cat photo :-p

[efthimios]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4554025.stm

Heh, and I thought that Xbox360 looked good on performance. It looks like PS3 will wipe the floor with the Xbox.
The appearance of it doesn't do it for me. It looks like a video player from the early 80s. At least it is confirmed that it will be compatible with the PS2. I wonder if that makes it also with the PS1, probably not.
It would be very funny if Nintendo releases info on the Revolution about it being 3 times as fast lol.


EDIT: According to http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/16 ... slot_click (I got the link from Penny Arcade) the PS3 supports PS1 CD-ROM (among the other formats). I guess this means it can also play PS1 games?

I also just watched the streaming video of the games for it and I have only one thing to say, in 2006 I will buy a PS3.
I particularly liked Killzone and the two racing games. The Wild West type of game looked nice but it didn't give much info.
Now, I do have a question for those who know. WTF is 480i 1080i and all that numbers for the screens? They mean nothing to me since I do not even have a TV.

[malthaussen]

Schrodinger needed to put a window in his box. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As for XBOXs and PSs and ilk, I never did understand 'em. Why pay hundreds of dollars for something that can only play games? And ususlly stupid ones at that -- can you imagine Spartan/Troy on an XBOX? Since I don't like shoot-em-ups and mass carnage games, consoles have never been on my wish list.

-- Mal

[duncan]

Microsoft press agent:


"Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360. You will NOT need to purchase a new 'version.' Your original games will work on Xbox 360."


Got it from a spanish web page. Replace "Our goal is..." with "Our intention was..." and "You will NOT need..." with "You will HAVE"

Why pay hundreds of dollars for something that can only play games? And ususlly stupid ones at that

Good point, but many people are into PCs because of games and ONLY games. They've got also a mp3 player. a DVD with 5.1 and a cell phone to chat with their friends. And, heh, internet at work ( ). I like to fight with my Linux but most people don't.