RULES FOR SIEGE

[sergiomonteleone]

In the forum there is an interesting survey focused in asking if there are players interested in siege.

When I played DBM I tried to use some other rules (Warhammer e Revenge) in order to play and refight ancient and medieval siege, but it didn't work it. I used very beautifull 1/72 siege machines and castle.

Is there a planning for publishing in the future an emendament for ancient and medieval sieges?

Sergio

[philqw78]

I thought about these

FoG Siege Rules

I've been having a think about this and the way the rules work.
IIRC the rules do not give a timescale. They just say something
vague about the ebb and flow of battle and there being major bits of
action between quiet periods. Much like a siege. The quiet periods
are longer in siege but as soon as things get to fisticuffs all hell
breaks loose. So why bother setting a separate time scale. So
there are only a few new mechanisms that you need.

You need is a way for artillery to destroy the walls. They can
already destroy siege towers (BWg) and shoot at things behind the
walls. So, Treat 2 sections of wall as a BG. Any death rolls
failed destroy a section. If they are destroyed so are any bases on
them. Shoot at evens POA 3 hits by hvy arty to cause a death roll. Shoot at temp fortifications with a +1 POA

Rams and screws destroying gates walls, elephants against gates. Rams/screws can be treated as BWG but can contact fortifications. Do hits against fortifications instead of the troops manning them. Death rolls the same as melee but possibly give the walls a +1 modifier unless temp fortifications.

Building TF for the attackers and defenders. If the walls are
breached, shore them up, or put up some cover for your artillery and
shooters whilst they soften the defences. We have CMT's for this.

Moving Hvy Arty forward. Move like poor BWg. Must pass a cmt to fire after moving

Tunnelling and counter tunneling. (Obviously must be done in
column) Move the front of the column forward one base width for each CMT passed.
If you get your tunnel under a wall the wall section is
destroyed, but time your troops to get there when it goes. The
defenders may counter tunnel. Pass a CMT to break through in the
right space with your counter tunnel once you have tunnelled to
touching. Mining BG can then fight. Remainder of the mining BG is to stay at the pit head
to be shot at whilst they carry the dirt away until contact. If a counter breaks in fight. If a BG breaks pursue, if
it takes you under the walls CMT to collapse them. If the tunnel is collapsed pass a cmt to save the mining bas and return it to the pithead

So CMT engineering tasks. A CMT for each BG frontage constructed, width mined. Mounted troops cannot do engineering CMT. But you can dismount your mounted at the start of the siege as fortifications are involved. Just don't dismount them all.

For engineering CMT make the re-rolls opposite. Poor re-roll a 1 or 2 average re-roll a 1. Superior re-roll 6, Elite re-roll 5 and 6. Because there are less people in elite BG and they aren’t going to lower themselves to dig holes.

[philqw78]

Assaulting walls? Foot only

Assume any troops assaulting have ladders unless on siege towers (BWg). If the siege towers break the defenders any BG of friendly foot in contact with them can pursue after the routers.

Siege towers fight as BWg normally against the troops defending the walls

Permanent walls. Only allow assaulters to fight in 1 rank. Count those assaulting as in Difficult terrain. If they are temporary fortifications hastily erected use the normal rules

Troops defending walls, foot only allowed, only count in 1 rank also.

[dave_r]

What about

- Murder Holes
- Hoardings
- Counter Battery Fire
- Counter Siege Engine fire
- Ladders

Could get tricky. Have you got Warhammer Siege? - there was lot's of good ideas in there about the various parts of siege warfare.

[philqw78]

What about

- Murder Holes
- Hoardings
- Counter Battery Fire
- Counter Siege Engine fire
- Ladders

Could get tricky. Have you got Warhammer Siege? - there was lot's of good ideas in there about the various parts of siege warfare.

Counter battery and siege engine fire would be explained as above, shoot at them normally; ladders as above; murder holes, for skirmish games; Hoardings, well if you can make money out of advertisements in a siege well done.

Moats and fires are a conundrum at the moment

[sergiomonteleone]

What about

- Murder Holes
- Hoardings
- Counter Battery Fire
- Counter Siege Engine fire
- Ladders

Could get tricky. Have you got Warhammer Siege? - there was lot's of good ideas in there about the various parts of siege warfare.

Counter battery and siege engine fire would be explained as above, shoot at them normally; ladders as above; murder holes, for skirmish games; Hoardings, well if you can make money out of advertisements in a siege well done.

Moats and fires are a conundrum at the moment

Good ideas.
Yes I have Warhammer siege and for DBM I used it. Also Revenge can help.
We should also think of the cost for each machine siege (except for artillery and portable defense).

Phil, have you already tried with FOG?
If I'm not wrong you will come to Rome, we can discuss there ............... drinking some beer or better Italian wine

Sergio

[philqw78]

Phil, have you already tried with FOG?
If I'm not wrong you will come to Rome, we can discuss there ............... drinking some beer or better Italian wine

Sergio

I hope to soon, but there are things beside moats and fire that are needed to get a game to the table: pursuit through gates; sallying out; relief forces; chemical and biological warfare; movement inside the fortified area; those secret escape tunnels that all castles are supposed to have; but most of all a reason to play the game and conditions for victory. Its one of those things I want to put more time into, but then end up painting another army instead, and have to get that on the table.

Discuss whilst drinking beer sounds great. Better Italian wine? Does it get any better?

See you there Sergio. Perhaps the Castle we are playing in will provide that extra inspiration.

[irondog068]

Warmaster Anicents medevil supplement has a section On sieges including points for siege equitment and all osrts of varibales. Also has point cost and length of siege. Nice thing is there units are 3 bases so there is not much fudging.


Now, Does anyone have a source for a 28mm Samurai castle?

Irondog

[philqw78]

Nice thing is there units are 3 bases so there is not much fudging.


Now, Does anyone have a source for a 28mm Samurai castle?

Irondog

Fudging! I'm offended!

[sergiomonteleone]

Phil, have you already tried with FOG?
If I'm not wrong you will come to Rome, we can discuss there ............... drinking some beer or better Italian wine

Sergio

I hope to soon, but there are things beside moats and fire that are needed to get a game to the table: pursuit through gates; sallying out; relief forces; chemical and biological warfare; movement inside the fortified area; those secret escape tunnels that all castles are supposed to have; but most of all a reason to play the game and conditions for victory. Its one of those things I want to put more time into, but then end up painting another army instead, and have to get that on the table.

Discuss whilst drinking beer sounds great. Better Italian wine? Does it get any better?

See you there Sergio. Perhaps the Castle we are playing in will provide that extra inspiration.

Italian white wine, better cold ........................... not too much on fryday night, depending on the results ............... see you in Rome
Sergio

[sergiomonteleone]

Warmaster Anicents medevil supplement has a section On sieges including points for siege equitment and all osrts of varibales. Also has point cost and length of siege. Nice thing is there units are 3 bases so there is not much fudging.


Now, Does anyone have a source for a 28mm Samurai castle?

Irondog

If I'm not wrong none sell 28mm Samurai castle.
I've discussed with a friend and you should made it for your own (I've found two articles in some magazines regarding how to build a Samurai castle: Wargames Soldiers and Strategy, n° 13 2005; Wargames Illustrated, june 1996)
I've posted a topic (in Modelling) regarding 15mm Samurai Castle and also smaller scales.
Sergio

[will05]

Have alook at these, though you would need to alter the printout to scale which I couldn't do.......Oh and have a lot of patience.

http://cp.c-ij.com/en/contents/2025/list_15_1.html

Will

[sergiomonteleone]

Have alook at these, though you would need to alter the printout to scale which I couldn't do.......Oh and have a lot of patience.

http://cp.c-ij.com/en/contents/2025/list_15_1.html

Will

Hi Will,
very nice.
Which is the scale of Chinese buildings? They are made of paper or of plastic and could you let me where did you buy it, please?
many thanks
Sergio

[DaiSho]

Is there a planning for publishing in the future an emendament for ancient and medieval sieges?

Sergio

Hi Sergio,

I think it depends a lot on what you're trying to re-create.

For example, the Siege of Syracuse was really a bunch of field battles with earth-works and counter-earth-works being dug, artillery being positioned and re-positioned etc etc.

Thus, if I was to re-create the Siege of Syracuse I'd have a long wall going across 2' of the table which is considered impregnable (effectively Impassable terrain). Running off that for another foot or so angling back toward the base edge have a Field Fortification manned by hoplites interspersed with Heavy Artillery (that should pretty much disuade anyone from taking on the 'hastily built city walls'.

Then the rest would be a field battle with the defenders manning the area between the base edge and the end of the field fortifications.

The attacker would have an area opposite which would be also behind field fortifications.

Any broken troops would run back to behind their respective walls to a specfic 'rally point' and hover until they are rallied.

If the assault or counter-assault succeeds then the routed troops would be destroyed upon contact with formed enemy.

So, effectively what you have is a flowing field battle that can go on and on and on. If the field fortifications are taken then the siege is either successful or lifted.

Ian

[sergiomonteleone]

Hi Ian,
I completely agree with you, there some sieges easy to refight but there are other ones hard to do (in particularly in terms of fortifications to use like for example Alesia).
Generally speaking I'm very interested in Medieval sieges because armies used some siege machines.
Even if the scale is higher, for 1/72 there are very beatifull sieges machines (for example frm Zvezda) and very good castle made of plastic (from Zvezda and Italeri).
Regarding Medieval sieges, for example could be interesting if Osprey would publish some campaign books for HYW or Crusades.

Regarding rules (and so an emendament for Ancient and Medieval sieges) I guess it could be not hard to make them. A lot of players in the forum gave interesting suggestions and there are other rules to compare (for example Warhammer .................... even if I don't like it, I don't understand why a person could enjoy playing with monsters and not with historical figures )

Sergio

[DaiSho]

I don't understand why a person could enjoy playing with monsters and not with historical figures )

Sergio

Well, even in these rules you have monsters! In this particular case they are under the command of a demon called Caesar! (look at my list of armies - it almost makes up the 'enemies' section of the Armies and Enemies of Rome)

[sergiomonteleone]

I don't understand why a person could enjoy playing with monsters and not with historical figures )

Sergio

Well, even in these rules you have monsters! In this particular case they are under the command of a demon called Caesar! (look at my list of armies - it almost makes up the 'enemies' section of the Armies and Enemies of Rome)

You are right. Even if I don't like to play with Romans (for example I'm used to play a lot with Palmyran), Caesar was a monster of strategy

[irondog068]

I don't like playing with monsters thata why
I know a company in spain makes a 28mm Samurai castle but I don't speak spanish and there site is only in Spanish with no links to a US distrubiter. On Perry's web site in the Gallery they show some pics of it. I may settle for a storming of a fort as I have most of John Jenkins designs buildings and there wall sections include loopholes and destroyed sections. It would also get rid of the need for a lot of rules for heavy duty siege rules. But there is a company that makes 28mm Asian siege equitment.

Killer Katanas 2 has simple siege rules. A couple things they have is 1) all infantry have ladders and 2) somany inches of wall has a defence strength (WMA also has this not sure about WAB).
I would try attacking a fort with rules before I jumped into full fledged siege.

Irondog

[Nebelwerfer41]

For seige warfare rules, I would suggest reading the works of Christopher Duffy on the subject.