Retreat needs patching

[ChristianC]

This happened a couple times in my current match...

My engineers with trucks, defending cities intersected by roads with rivers running perpendicular to them, are suppressed and frontally attacked by single enemy units. Instead of using the road to retreat in the opposite direction of the attacks behind a few friendly units (well within their movement points, and there are no enemy units adjacent to the roads blocking them), they arbitrarily retreat onto an adjacent river hex losing all movement points and are set up for surrender. Please patch this.

[kissofpain]

I had the impression that in PC1 units retreated 1 hex directly opposite the attacking unit.

Now it seems random. Sometimes they retreat 2 hexes behind enemy units, sometimes they move towards the attacking units. Is there anywhere this retreat mechanics explained?

[terminator]

It would be interesting to have screenshots to better understand the situation.

[nexusno2000]

Retreat rulzes:

1. Retreat directly away from attacker.

2. Check for impassable terrain.

3. Avoid ending IN ZOC of enemy unit.

4. Find an empty hex to go to.

5. Use the least possible MP to retreat.

If a unit can't retreat bc of the above it surrenders.

[timberwolf15]

It may be ok that its kind of screwball because retreats from my understanding were iffy and mostly unorganized so perhaps this adds an epic amount of realism ... anyway ... so evidently one could decide whether or not to attack with a unit because in the event it retreats it would end up other there instead of over here because one realizes the empty hex is over there and costs less movement than to go over here where its better. Only Chesty Puller was able to retreat effectively ...

[nexusno2000]

It becomes problematic because retreat happens to adjacent hex, if possible, even if there are safer alternatives further away.

[Jonesy1760]

I agree...retreating in this game is ridiculous!!!....it has been for a very long time....Come on guys fix this NOW!

[nexusno2000]

Example: Jagdpanther east of Berlin (Defenders of the Reich scenario), standing on the main road is mauled by a Soviet tank. It retreats north into a swamp (adjacent hex), expending all MP in the process. Instead of driving a few hexes backwards to safety. It's promptly attacked by some Soviet inf and surrenders...

There are several lessons here:

1. I know how retreat works, so shouldn't have placed my AT unit like that

2. Don't bring a Jagdpanther to a Jagdtiger fight... and in some scenarios a 4-start str 15 Panther tank is good only for secondary roles...

Edit:

3. This is why you should always play with Perimeter Control if you can

[ChristianC]

It becomes problematic because retreat happens to adjacent hex, if possible, even if there are safer alternatives further away.

This was my suspicion. It seemed apparently because a hex is simply adjacent to the retreating unit and open (even if it is a suicidal option such as retreating onto a river hex or a swamp and losing all movement points) it will be chosen in place of a safer alternatives. However, after testing in the editor and witnessing similar situations in game I can see that units don't always retreat this way...

For example, I surrounded an infantry unit (no trucks) with friendlies to the rear (two units deep) and enemies to the front with one open adjacent mountain hex, to my surprise when forced into retreat they did not retreat onto the mountain hex but behind their friendlies. Also interesting is that they decided to spend more movement points (they spent 3 feet points while the mountain would have cost them 2) in their retreat.. To avoid ending up adjacent to an enemy unit perhaps? This would be in accordance with the rules you mentioned earlier, but clearly units occasionally spend more movement points (ex. river, swamp) in retreating adjacent to enemy instead of safer alternatives which would cost them less movement points..

In another example, in my recent match, I had a tank with an open river hex on its east and friendlies all around (only one or two deep with open terrain beyond them) except for one adjacent enemy on the south. This tank is forced into retreat from the south, and instead of using its movement points to reach safety, it decides to move east onto the river expending all movement points and is promptly surrendered. I then put another tank on this same hex as it's critical to occupy for another turn and I figure it will be lost in the same manner. But this time when it's forced into retreat it goes north through friendlies instead of moving onto the river hex! How can this be?

[terminator]

This retreat problem also exists in OoB WWII. In OoB WWII, I think the AI chose the shortest path but not necessarily the best one.

[nexusno2000]

It becomes problematic because retreat happens to adjacent hex, if possible, even if there are safer alternatives further away.

This was my suspicion. It seemed apparently because a hex is simply adjacent to the retreating unit and open (even if it is a suicidal option such as retreating onto a river hex or a swamp and losing all movement points) it will be chosen in place of a safer alternatives. However, after testing in the editor and witnessing similar situations in game I can see that units don't always retreat this way...

For example, I surrounded an infantry unit (no trucks) with friendlies to the rear (two units deep) and enemies to the front with one open adjacent mountain hex, to my surprise when forced into retreat they did not retreat onto the mountain hex but behind their friendlies. Also interesting is that they decided to spend more movement points (they spent 3 feet points while the mountain would have cost them 2) in their retreat.. To avoid ending up adjacent to an enemy unit perhaps? This would be in accordance with the rules you mentioned earlier, but clearly units occasionally spend more movement points (ex. river, swamp) in retreating adjacent to enemy instead of safer alternatives which would cost them less movement points..

In another example, in my recent match, I had a tank with an open river hex on its east and friendlies all around (only one or two deep with open terrain beyond them) except for one adjacent enemy on the south. This tank is forced into retreat from the south, and instead of using its movement points to reach safety, it decides to move east onto the river expending all movement points and is promptly surrendered. I then put another tank on this same hex as it's critical to occupy for another turn and I figure it will be lost in the same manner. But this time when it's forced into retreat it goes north through friendlies instead of moving onto the river hex! How can this be?

Units don't want to retreat to hexes with enemy zones control. Which is almost the same as adjacent, but not always. High mnts and heavy forest can for example break ZoC of mechanized units but not light infantry,

[ChristianC]

I strike and instead of moving out of encirclement and using 1 movement point the infantry moves into encirclement and loses all its movement points on a river hex. This is not related to anything mentioned above or in other topics on retreat mechanics. I've seen this happen again and again throughout the tournament. The unit has multiple retreat options (NOT part of enemy ZOC) and chooses an adjacent river hex. As if the unit gets sucked onto the river hex.

Can we get some clarification from the developers on this? They say just about nothing on this forum and one can only wonder why.

[Trepko]

I can't say for sure, but I suspect that if the 2 main "retreat tests" fail (go in a "no enemy ZoC" hex and go in the direct opposite hex), the retreating unit will use a standard clockwise (or unclockwise) retreat pattern.

I'm pretty sure that if you reproduce your situation in the modding menu, the result will always be the same.

[ChristianC]

I can't say for sure, but I suspect that if the 2 main "retreat tests" fail (go in a "no enemy ZoC" hex and go in the direct opposite hex), the retreating unit will use a standard clockwise (or unclockwise) retreat pattern.

I'm pretty sure that if you reproduce your situation in the modding menu, the result will always be the same.

Interesting idea. But I see no reason for the 'retreat test' to fail here. Neither open hex is in the direct opposite direction, and only one is out of enemy ZoC.

[Trepko]

In your case, both "retreat tests" failed: all free hexes (3) are in the ZoC of one of your unit, and the opposite hex is not available (occupied by your bridge unit).

[nutoha]

I can't say for sure, but I suspect that if the 2 main "retreat tests" fail (go in a "no enemy ZoC" hex and go in the direct opposite hex), the retreating unit will use a standard clockwise (or unclockwise) retreat pattern.

I'm pretty sure that if you reproduce your situation in the modding menu, the result will always be the same.

Interesting idea. But I see no reason for the 'retreat test' to fail here. Neither open hex is in the direct opposite direction, and only one is out of enemy ZoC.

Lets imagine that your bridging unit isnt in the river - then the only no ZoC hex will be in the city hex and the ifantry you made to retreat will go there, cause the guards and the katyusha had ZoC on the river hexes.Retreating units doesnt "care " about movement points spend, they try to do it clockwise from attackers perspective.

[o_t_d_x]

My impression regarding retreat: the ai enemy retreats much smarter, then my units, that seem to have a death wish.

And i really hate that units always survive with one health and run away. Of course the ai units flee in a way so i can´t finish em off.

My units do the opposite: they flee in a way, that makes it especially easy to kill or force them to surrender. Seen that very often.

Nowadays gaming ais are brilliant in sucking. They always find the most stupid solution, even if there are many other stupid solutions. Ai allies proofed that to me, often. (in my last bzura defence in poland old grand camp. i counted how often the ai put tanks in bad terrain: 98 % wood, swamp, hills. Very impressive, how consequently the ai avoids open terrain with tanks. BRILLIANT idiots, really.

If there is one thing about pc2 that really disappointed me, then the ai. (ok the editor is very high in that regard too...)

[DefiantXYX]

My opinion: just make it simple. The enemy attacks from the right ==> the defenders retreat to the left
I guess if you get overrun in a fight you dont care about ZOC, terrain etc. you just try to escape.
You could add some special rules, like dont get into rivers or high terrain if there is another option, but right now the system is weird and nothing is more annoying than losing a core units just because it retreats directly into the enemy.

[ChristianC]

Lets imagine that your bridging unit isnt in the river - then the only no ZoC hex will be in the city hex and the ifantry you made to retreat will go there, cause the guards and the katyusha had ZoC on the river hexes.Retreating units doesnt "care " about movement points spend, they try to do it clockwise from attackers perspective.

In your case, both "retreat tests" failed: all free hexes (3) are in the ZoC of one of your unit, and the opposite hex is not available (occupied by your bridge unit).

Okay I understand this case now, thanks. I misunderstood ZoC. But in reference to the OP, which I thought this scenario was related to, I'm still perplexed as to why retreating units move sideways onto river hexes, adjacent to enemy (ZoC), when they have wide open options to the rear. When you want to make the best moves, not knowing why this happens is pretty annoying.

[malic]

I agree, Retreating rules are bizarre in this game.