Offensive Spear Medium Foot Forced to Charge (Terrain)

[kal5056]

If medium foot Offensive Spear are in favorable terrain do they have to roll not to charge heavy foot that is standing against the edge of the terrain.
IE - After the charge the Heavy are completely in the open and the Medium are completely in the terrain?

Seems that this is in effect forcing the Mediums to give up the advantage of terrain.

Thank You
Gino
SMAC

[hammy]

If the edge of the terrain is exactly straight and the heavy foot are exactly lined up with the edge then yes.

That said this would not really dissadvantage the MF as they would not be in the open.

If the edge of the terrain is irregular then the MF must end partly in the open so there would be no need to test.

[philqw78]

That said this would not really dissadvantage the MF as they would not be in the open.

Yes it would. If they lost melee to the HF they would have a minus 1 on CT for losing v's HF in the open

[gozerius]

You are misreading the shorthand. The -1 is for MF in the open losing to heavy foot.

[kal5056]

Thank You so even if the MF's front edge is slightly out of the terrain no test? Right?\

I have seen this scenario create many a lively discussion.

The Heavy foot are completely in the open and the Medium foot are completely in the terrain.

I saw a fairly simple rule of thumb posted once that said something like; "Look at the condition of the unit making the roll for CT's or the unit claiming the POA on combat rolls to see which apply.

Hence if the Med foot have lost a combat to Heavy foot then the Medium foot are making the CT so we look at thier state (Not in the open) so no minus 1.

Am I parapharasing this correctly?

Now a second example.

You have a BG of non-skirmishers that is Fragged sitting just out side of a terrain piece (Less than 1 base depth away).
Can a BG of Light foot charge this BG as the Light foot would not have to completely exit the terrain to do so?

Does the "State" of the Light BG (In Terrain) allow the charge?
Or is it the "State" of the Fragged BG (in the Open) that prevents the charge?

Thank You
Gino
SMAC

[rich0101]

Gino I would have to say no to the LF portion of the question, because the rule states that LF cannot charge non-skirmishers that are in the open. If the non-skirmishers are in the open they cannot charge.

[hammy]

Thank You so even if the MF's front edge is slightly out of the terrain no test? Right?

Correct

The rules say there is no test "If they are medium foot starting wholly in uneven, rough or difficult terrain and the move* could end even partly in open terrain." So if your MF are entirely in terrain then is even part of the BG would end in the open there is no need to charge.

[philqw78]

You are misreading the shorthand. The -1 is for MF in the open losing to heavy foot.

I thought the -1 was for MF losing to heavy foot in the open. Stops MF with their arse in terrain fighting at better odds than they should.

[hammy]

You are misreading the shorthand. The -1 is for MF in the open losing to heavy foot.

I thought the -1 was for MF losing to heavy foot in the open. Stops MF with their arse in terrain fighting at better odds than they should.

I suspect that this can be read either way.

i.e. MF losing (to mounted or HF) in open terrain

or MF losing (to mounted or HF in open terrain)

Now you could read that MF in any terrain take a -1 CT for facing mounted anywhere but only take the -1 if facing HF who are in open terrain.

I think the first reading makes the most sense gramatically.

[shall]

The first ...

Gives a mid ground one for troops partially in terrain, as they still count the POAs for most opponents as in the open as they are, even if the MF are not.

Si

[philqw78]

So a BG of MF with the back of a rear base edge in terrain does not get a -1 on CT if losing to HF or mounted as the MF is not in the open then?

[rbodleyscott]

So a BG of MF with the back of a rear base edge in terrain does not get a -1 on CT if losing to HF or mounted as the MF is not in the open then?

Whether it is in open terrain or not isn't an issue. What matters is whether the HF are.

Open Terrain The whole battle-field apart from areas of uneven, rough, difficult or impassable terrain counts as ‘open terrain’.

POAs and Cohesion Test modifiers only applying ‘in open terrain’ do not count:
 If the base claiming the POA or causing the Cohesion Test modifier even partly enters uneven, rough or difficult terrain.
 If attacking or defending fortifications or a riverbank.

In the case of the MF fighting HF along the perfectly straight edge of a terrain piece, it is clear that the HF are the ones who "cause the cohesion test modifier". Therefore the MF would suffer a -1 CT modifier if they test for losing the combat.

[philqw78]

So Si and hammy are wrong then?

Yippee!

[rbodleyscott]

So Si and hammy are wrong then?

It appears so. However, the original poster seems to have spotted an anomaly in that the MF would have to test not to charge in those circumstaces, as they would still be in the terrain after the charge.

The moral is - don't use straight edged terrain if you have MF shock troops.

[nikgaukroger]

I would hope that people only use straight edged terrain pieces where it is appropriate - oh, hanf on, we're talking wargamers here

[shall]

Indeed I have been playing that one wrong - although I think its only happened twice in 3 years of play.

Missed the detailed definition inthe glossary - cunningly hidden away

Si

[hammy]

Indeed I have been playing that one wrong - although I think its only happened twice in 3 years of play.

Missed the detailed definition inthe glossary - cunningly hidden away

Si

Yaay, two wrong rules in one month

[shall]

Which was the other one?

Si

[kal5056]

Just when I thought I had it figured out with a one size fits all axium for these things.

"Look at the unit making the rule and see which modifier applies."
IE Medium foot making a CT against mounted ---Look at see if the medium foot are in the open or not.

It would appear from RBS's post that I have this exactly backwards..... so here goes again:

"Look at the unit CAUSING the CT and see what state they are in."
So medium foot losing to Heavy foot or Mounted which are in the open take a minus 1 no matter where the Medium foot stand. Is this correct?

What about the POA for Mounted against Medium Foot in the Open. Is this the Medium foot being in the open or the Mounted?

I would have thought from my earlier rule of thumb that as the Mounted are rolling the dice they would claim the POA based on them (Mounted)being in the open. Is this correct?

What about a unit of Cav in a forest fighting a unit of Medium foot completely in the Open? Don't ask me how the cav got there just tell me the POA's and the Modifier on the CT if the Medium Foot Lose.

Thank You
Gino
SMAC

[rbodleyscott]

"Look at the unit CAUSING the CT and see what state they are in."
So medium foot losing to Heavy foot or Mounted which are in the open take a minus 1 no matter where the Medium foot stand. Is this correct?

Yes

What about the POA for Mounted against Medium Foot in the Open. Is this the Medium foot being in the open or the Mounted?

The mounted.

Note that with normal curvy-edged terrain, if the mounted are out of the terrain then so must be the front edge of the MF. Hence they aren't really in terrain are they?

I would have thought from my earlier rule of thumb that as the Mounted are rolling the dice they would claim the POA based on them (Mounted)being in the open. Is this correct?

Yes

No "rule of thumb" is required. See the quote from the glossary above.

What about a unit of Cav in a forest fighting a unit of Medium foot completely in the Open? Don't ask me how the cav got there just tell me the POA's and the Modifier on the CT if the Medium Foot Lose.

It is late at night, but AFAICS there is no POA and no CT modifier, because both are cancelled by the mounted being partly in bad going.