Heavy chariots

[HobbesACW]

Hi folks, I've played my first game against heavy chariots and I'm quite surprised at how powerful they are against horse units. Light chariots only seem useful for attacking other light units or disrupted units.
Heavy chariots can more than hold their own against all sorts of mounted troops. I find this very difficult to believe. Even against light horse. How could such an unmaneuverable unit survive against mounted units?
I'm also finding it difficult to find information about how chariots were used in warfare. Anyone have any interesting links?

Chris

[SnuggleBunnies]

Heavy chariots really don't do that great in a missile exchange, at least not very points efficient. They have impressive Impact, but it does not apply against Lancers or Steady Offensive Spearmen, Defensive Spearmen, or Pikemen, and it requires Open terrain. They are too slow to catch mounted units that can evade.

Light Chariots btw, are not a light unit despite the name. They can auto drop non light units.

Both types of chariots get +100 Impact POA against Bowmen/Light Infantry in the Open. Note that Sparabara/Immortals do count as Bowmen.

[Nijis]

I know the game simulates overall results rather than tries to reconstruct exactly what happens when one unit impacts another, but I'd be curious to know what the thinking is as to how chariots would charge formed troops.

I'd imagine that many lancer tactics, such as thrusting while wheeling and breaking off, would be difficult with a heavy chariot because of its maneuverability and because the horses extend out in front well beyond weapon length. Do we think a chariot would only close to melee range if the infantry started to break and run before impact? Otherwise, would it stop say 20 meters before impact and turn slowly? Could some of the riders dismount for a short period to skirmish or cover a retreat?

I recognize the difficulty of getting any sort of firm answer to this. It's hard enough with cavalry charges, despite many detailed eyewitness accounts going up to the 19th century. But I'd just be interested to hear the theories.

[SimonLancaster]

I think heavy chariots were a bit hit and miss. Sometimes they could be very effective and turn the tide of a battle. Any infantry that were wavering or ill disciplined might have a tough time facing up to heavy scythed chariots head on. Infantry that held and braced were a different story.

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/en ... riots.html

[HobbesACW]

Thanks for your answers chaps. The answers make me think that they are certainly too strong against mounted units. I'm suprised they don't suffer a large POA penalty against mounted units, especially during melee (and maybe during impact).

[SimonLancaster]

It would be interesting to see any links to battles between heavy chariots and cavalry. A lot of the cavalry in ancient times seemed to use a long spear which doesn't seem to be so effective in melee. Heavy chariots also carried several men so maybe an advantage over single horsemen?

I think head-on it would be tough to beat a heavy chariot with cavalry. It seems that historically heavy chariots were beaten by more agile opponents as in the Battle of Kadesh. In the game, this is probably represented by being able to flank around and outmanoeuvre heavy chariots.

[Nijis]

"If you heard that chariots are coming which are not, as before, to stand still facing back as if for flight.." is an interesting line from the Notae site. It suggests to me that regular, unscythed Persian chariots did park and turn around in front of formed infantry. No doubt some classicists hold fervent dissenting views on the translation of the Greek verbs, of course.