Chariots vs Shooty Cavalry

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:54 am

Hi All,

Wondering how Bow armed Chariots will go up against Shooty Cavalry.

Will they see an end to shooty cavalry dominating Can-Con 2010?

Can-Con 2009 saw shooty cavalry get 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Will we see Shooty cavalry bought back down to size so that Vikings win Can-Con next year?

Ian

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:33 am

For most chariot armies. Chariots work out cheaper on frontage if 1 deep. But the cavalry they face does not need to bother being 1 deep as it can normally (sword) fight the chariots at an advantage, unless heavy, and can concentrate more firepower on a smaller frontage. If fighting a "Biblical"* army with a shooty cav army most of the enemy foot can be skirmished off with LH, Chariot armies tend to not have any answer to this, and the Cav can concentrate on the chariots.

An army maximising chariots and minimising foot, like the AB Panzer Div, would be a hard one to counter. But would suffer badly from terrain

*for Biblical read ancient near/middle east as most armies may not be in the bible, so could be made up.

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:40 am

philqw78 wrote:If fighting a "Biblical"* army with a shooty cav army most of the enemy foot can be skirmished off with LH, Chariot armies tend to not have any answer to this, and the Cav can concentrate on the chariots.

Can they be? I mean, most Biblical armies have lots of Medium foot. Wouldn't they catch most skirmisher types eventually and/or force them off the table.

Ian

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:46 am

Catching LH with MF is like trying to catch them with Knights. The LH will get away. They can only be caught if at 1MU. The only advantage the MF have over Knights is a greater frontage. Eventually some will be forced off table for 1 attrition point. The same as eventually some of the average protected MF will succomb to shooting. If the latter hapens its a lot worse for the MF.

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:02 am

philqw78 wrote:Catching LH with MF is like trying to catch them with Knights. The LH will get away. They can only be caught if at 1MU. The only advantage the MF have over Knights is a greater frontage. Eventually some will be forced off table for 1 attrition point. The same as eventually some of the average protected MF will succomb to shooting. If the latter hapens its a lot worse for the MF.

I didn't really mean to put much weight on the 'catching' the light foot, more that because the MF move faster than heavy foot (and care less about terrain) then trying to stop the MF with the lights isn't going to be easy. Also, if the skirmishers are frightened off the table then the camp is also taken, so it's not looking that great!

I'm not so sure it's as bleak as you're making out - I'm more interested in the battle between the shooty cavalry and the Chariots anyway!

Ian

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:23 am

And when the MF chase the LH, suddenly there'll be charged by cavalry and the cavalry are likely to chop them into little bits.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:25 am

DaiSho wrote:
I'm not so sure it's as bleak as you're making out - I'm more interested in the battle between the shooty cavalry and the Chariots anyway!

Ian

Well shooty cavalry should win on a per frontage basis if 2 deep against LCh. But this would give them half the frontage unless the chariots were themselves 2 deep, therefore reducing their firepower but also decreasing the number of hits they take. IMO the cavalry should win it. But a lot depends on the supporting troops.

HCh straight up against cavalry IMO should win as they get to fight on evens against most mounted. Also in this case the cav will possibly go 1 deep so as to be able to evade, so the cavalry will suffer as much from shooting as they do.

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:27 am

grahambriggs wrote:And when the MF chase the LH, suddenly there'll be charged by cavalry and the cavalry are likely to chop them into little bits.

Yes, well, I imagine that would be the case... if the Chariots stood by and did nothing.

We were talking about the Chariots being dealt with by the Cavalry while the LH dealt with the MF.

SURE, if one side or the other has dealt with their 'other' opponents then all sorts of things can happen.

Ian

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:32 am

philqw78 wrote:HCh straight up against cavalry IMO should win as they get to fight on evens against most mounted. Also in this case the cav will possibly go 1 deep so as to be able to evade, so the cavalry will suffer as much from shooting as they do.

Yeah, I don't have my book here, so I'm still trying to get my head around some POA's etc.

If the Cavalry charge the Light Chariots, the Light Chariots get the chance to evade and next turn turn around and shoot the cavalry at an advantageous number of elements;

or

If the Cavalry charge in one rank the Light Chariots can take the charge and fight with more dice...

Isn't that about right?

Ian

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:15 am

DaiSho wrote:If the Cavalry charge the Light Chariots, the Light Chariots get the chance to evade and next turn turn around and shoot the cavalry at an advantageous number of elements;

or

If the Cavalry charge in one rank the Light Chariots can take the charge and fight with more dice...

Isn't that about right?

Ian

If a single BG of shooty cavalry takes on a BG of light chariots it will in all probability get badly beaten up. The chariots will be evens at impact. The cavalry will normally be swordsmen so plus in melee, but 8 dice v's 4 for the chariots makes the chariots a winner. The cavalry need to use numbers, and at the frontage chariots normally use they can. Cavalry 1 deep against LCh is a bad idea. One BG v's 1 BG the chariots are far better off. But this will rarely happen IMO and the cavalry will be more densely packed.

In a shooting match between the 2 BG it would be even, but the chariots will be more than happy to charge the cav.

A lot depends on how you make use of the troops and allow/enable this use to happen due to supporting troops

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:27 am

philqw78 wrote:
If a single BG of shooty cavalry takes on a BG of light chariots it will in all probability get badly beaten up. The chariots will be evens at impact. The cavalry will normally be swordsmen so plus in melee, but 8 dice v's 4 for the chariots makes the chariots a winner. The cavalry need to use numbers, and at the frontage chariots normally use they can. Cavalry 1 deep against LCh is a bad idea. One BG v's 1 BG the chariots are far better off. But this will rarely happen IMO and the cavalry will be more densely packed.

In a shooting match between the 2 BG it would be even, but the chariots will be more than happy to charge the cav.

A lot depends on how you make use of the troops and allow/enable this use to happen due to supporting troops

Ok, I'm starting to see where you're coming from now.

But if you've got 2 BG's of cavalry trying to beat up on one BG of Chariots... somewhere the Cavalry are going to be leaving flanks unprotected.

I mean any kind of shooty cavalry is about the same number of points as a light chariot bow correct? Yes, they are cheaper, but not by enough to worry about. So, the Chariots evade and keep on evading. If it's started at the middle of the table then they have 2-3 good evades in them before they have to risk taking a charge an hoping for the best. In that time they are doing a reasonable amount of shooting and for equal points will likely have additional shooting at the flank of the cavalry, if not an impact charge.

It's an interesting conundrum... have to get someone to play it out and let me know how it goes

I'll get a Chariot army (truly Biblical - Davidian Hebrew) sooner or later... I have everything worked out - except how to play it

Ian

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:23 pm

I am not sure that the various chariot armies are the perfect counter to shooty cavalry, they will do OK against them but not dominate them. That said shooty cavalry are not dominant in UK tournaments. Good counters seem to be MF bow armies and armoured MF armies

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:04 pm

DaiSho wrote:Hi All,

Wondering how Bow armed Chariots will go up against Shooty Cavalry.

Will they see an end to shooty cavalry dominating Can-Con 2010?

Can-Con 2009 saw shooty cavalry get 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Will we see Shooty cavalry bought back down to size so that Vikings win Can-Con next year?

Ian

Taking on a Cav/Lh bow army with my assyrian Ch/MF bow army I would be seeking the opposit matchups.

Stuff the MF bow against the cav and out shoot them and but the chariots on the wings to look after Light horse and other skirmishers. its risky but the decent biblical bow (with light spear in the front) should hold off cav and definately outshoot them.

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:03 pm

hammy wrote:I am not sure that the various chariot armies are the perfect counter to shooty cavalry, they will do OK against them but not dominate them. That said shooty cavalry are not dominant in UK tournaments. Good counters seem to be MF bow armies and armoured MF armies

I would think that Classical Indian would do well against shooty cavalry, given that they have scads of MF bow, along with elephants, and can even have heavy chariots if so desired. Of course the earlier version which can be drilled and have sword armed MF bow (which I like) also has unprotected MF bow which could be a problem against shooty cav

Dale

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:09 pm

daleivan wrote: Of course the earlier version which can be drilled and have sword armed MF bow (which I like) also has unprotected MF bow which could be a problem against shooty cav

Ive wanted to try each version. But unprotected in 8 bases, potentially deployed 3 wide can likely stand up to shooty cav. especially if you have rear support of an IC.

stefoid · Post by **stefoid** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:14 am

Having played this scenario, you will find that a chariot army has heaps of frontage and its all superior.

Chariots will always charge cavalry that is one rank deep, because they get twice the dice, so the cavalry must form up two deep. If thats the case, they better be armoured or they will get outshot badly. Such units, even if average and undrilled, cost 14 per base, so thats 28pts per frontage vs the superior chariots at only 18pts per frontage.

I would advise against cavalry evading chariots and vice/versa. Once the aggressive BG advances to less than 1 inch, there is a very high probability that they will catch evaders. something like 42% if I am calcualting it correctly. Thats too high a risk, so any chariots faced with armored, swordsmen cavalry should stand and fight IMO. The cav get a POA in melee, but thats not incredibly decisive, especially against superior opponents. The chariots will tend to lose, but lose slow.

Meanwhile, because they have immense frontage, they will be trying to win quickly elsewhere, becaue they cant be opposed by such expensive oppoennts everywhere across the table.

Also, dont underestimate light spear and sword armed medium infantry. Neither side has a POA in impact or melee, and if the second rank is bow armed like mitanni or assyrian foot, they can even shoot up the cavalry before and during impact.

Chariots vs Shooty Cavalry

Chariots vs Shooty Cavalry

Re: Chariots vs Shooty Cavalry