Newbie Help on Army Choice and Army design

[HansJansen]

Hi,

I am considering an one dimensional army as my first, and I wanted to have some experienced input before I go out to purchase figures.

We normally play 600pt army on a default sized board (I was also told we always played across the width - Is this always so?).

I like the look of Early Achaemenid Persian, and I like the fact that they got a lot of Bow units.

Can an all-out shooty army work? Can Early Achaemenid Persian be competitive? (In short 3 TC, Max LF shoot)

Any suggestions please?

Hans Jansen.

[babyshark]

Hi,

I am considering an one dimensional army as my first, and I wanted to have some experienced input before I go out to purchase figures.

We normally play 600pt army on a default sized board (I was also told we always played across the width - Is this always so?).

I like the look of Early Achaemenid Persian, and I like the fact that they got a lot of Bow units.

Can an all-out shooty army work? Can Early Achaemenid Persian be competitive? (In short 3 TC, Max LF shoot)

Any suggestions please?

Hans Jansen.

EAP can be quite competitive indeed, although--as with most armies--a lot depends on what you do with it. And what your opponents do to counter it. It is likely to tear into most mounted armies, but will have trouble against armored foot. There is no perfect solution in FoG (at least not yet).

I believe that Steve Payne (in the US) and Graham Briggs (in the UK) have run EAP successfully. Of course, both are good players with any army. I don't think that Steve is on this forum, but Graham is. Perhaps he would be willing to post a detailed analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of EAP?



Marc

[HansJansen]

Thanks,

I was also looking at Skythian or Saka, which has similar strengths, but it would be interesting to hear which lists have which weaknesses. It would be good to know this before committing to an army.

Hans.

[hammy]

When buying your first army it is a good idea to try to get figures that can be used for several other armies at a push. If for example your first army ends up being New Kingdom Egyptian then it is really hard to use the figures for anything much else as they are quite distinctive. If on the other hand you bought a Hittite army the odds are that if you used the figures for several other armies in the period nobody would be any the wiser.

Light horse are not at all bad but they can be a bit frustrating to play and play against. When you say 600 points on default sized tables do you mean 6feet by 4 feet (1.8m by 1.2m)? If so then a mounted army would be a good plan as there is a lot of space to move on a table that big for a starter sized army.

[DaiSho]

Hi,

I am considering an one dimensional army as my first, and I wanted to have some experienced input before I go out to purchase figures.

We normally play 600pt army on a default sized board (I was also told we always played across the width - Is this always so?).

I like the look of Early Achaemenid Persian, and I like the fact that they got a lot of Bow units.

Can an all-out shooty army work? Can Early Achaemenid Persian be competitive? (In short 3 TC, Max LF shoot)

Any suggestions please?

Hans Jansen.

If I can make a suggestion:

If you are interested in EAP that's great, but at 600AP why don't you consider a horse archer army? You can build something along the lines of the Skythians where (especially if you actually used Bactrian and Skythian figures) would fit the EAP army some time in the future.

600AP of Light horse and cavalry is not going to be overly expensive, althought here I am spending your money for you.

This 600AP horse archer army will give you a LOT of experience with using troops in manouver. As a new player you will learn quickly from your mistakes, but your mistakes with a horse archer army are a lot less forgiving than they are with something like a ponderous Viking army (as an example).

After you've done that, and are gaining in experience you can build some Saparabarra troops to give you a foot 'contingent'. I don't have my rules or lists here (I'm at work) but can the Skythians (or similar) have an EAP ally?

So, now you're easing yourself into a fully committed EAP army. If you don't like what you see, you can quickly go in another direction because a hairy barbarian on horseback is a hairy barbarian on horse back, and you'll be able to use them for pretty much any army up to the early medievals.

Just a thought.

Ian

[DaiSho]

When buying your first army it is a good idea to try to get figures that can be used for several other armies at a push. If for example your first army ends up being New Kingdom Egyptian then it is really hard to use the figures for anything much else as they are quite distinctive. If on the other hand you bought a Hittite army the odds are that if you used the figures for several other armies in the period nobody would be any the wiser.

Light horse are not at all bad but they can be a bit frustrating to play and play against. When you say 600 points on default sized tables do you mean 6feet by 4 feet (1.8m by 1.2m)? If so then a mounted army would be a good plan as there is a lot of space to move on a table that big for a starter sized army.

Very good point Hammy. My first army was a Samurai. Fortunately they can be used for all sorts of armies. Northern Samurai. Southern Samurai. Eastern Samurai. Western Samurai. I had LOADS of choices

Ian

[HansJansen]

Thanks for the input.

I was also considering Skythians, because of the horse archers, but I enjoy the feel of the Persians more. I also got a few free Persian figures today when one of the guys at the club I am at heard that I am interested in playing Persian.

Can't wait to paint,

Hans Jansen.

[Polkovnik]

I think EAP would be a good choice, although it's not what I'd call one-dimensional. In fact there's quite a variety and choice, as you get foot archers, horse archers, heavy bow cavalry, heavy foot, plenty of light foot & light horse. One of the best things about it is you get immortals (armoured superior bow - maybe the only ones in all the army lists ?) and as many sparabara (bow - light spear) as you like. Light spear is a freebie for foot troops so you get an army that should be good "value".
There's quite a lot of cross-over with saka / skythian so you could then build that as your second army. I'd get some hoplites so you can stand up to a heavy foot army. And make sure you've got plenty of maximum sized terrain pieces ready - you'll need as much terrain as you can get with this army.

[caliban66]

I love EAP. It was my first FoG army. In 600 pts I would go strongly on Immortals and minimun in other sparabara. Sparabara are easy to kill for almost any MF with any melee POA, while Immortals are very tought both against Cav and against enemy HF or competeng MF. Horse archers may give you extra arrows to make your armoured bow cavalry a very hard enemy. Make them work together.

[rbodleyscott]

And make sure you've got plenty of maximum sized terrain pieces ready - you'll need as much terrain as you can get with this army.

Maximum sized "normal" terrain pieces, not maximum size "large" pieces. You are more likely to get them where you want if you have more of them.

I would also say that the version with armoured Medizing Greek hoplites is much easier to use successfully than the version with only masses of MF archers. (Though some very good players have won tournaments with the version without hoplites). The ordinary sparabara MF can very easily become victims if not used with great skill.

[caliban66]

Armoured hoplites are a solution, but wouldn´t feel as EAP if used in great numbers. But Mr. Scott is absolutely right concerning sparabara. What about deploying them last, in front of a suitable enemy already deployed?

[Martin0112]

I've played with EAP in the AttritiCon in Germany last weekend.
Unfortunately we only had 6 players and all other armies were medieval armies (Ok, one was an Early Crusader, but that was the one I didn't played against).
So I was all the 4 games facing Knights and armoured foot, so I like these enemies

But nevertheless I ended up 2nd, so also this army can work versus knights

Here is the list I played:

4 x TC Commanders
1 x 2 Guard Cavalry Elite, Armoured, Drilled, Bow, Swordsmen
2 x 4 persian Cavalry Superior, Armoured, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
1 x 8 Immortals Medium Foot, Superior, Armoured, Drilled, Bow, Light Spear
1 x 6 Immortals Medium Foot, Superior, Armoured, Drilled, Bow, Light Spear
4 x 6 Persian foot Medium Foot, Average, Protected, Undrilled, Bow, 1/2 Light Spear
2 x 6 Crescent shield archers Light Foot, Average, Undrilled, Bow
1 x 4 Light horse archers Light Horse, Average, Undrilled, Bow
1 x 2 Indian Chariots Heavy Chariot, Average, Undrilled
1 x 6 Asiatic Greek Hoplites Heavy Foot, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Assyrian Foot 1/2 Heavy Foot, Protected, Average, Drilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen, 1/2 Medium Foot, Protected, Average, Drilled, Bow

Some general amendments:
You will most likely loose initiative (only a +1-modifier), so make sure you select a really large first terrain (the first terrain can be large but is counted only once) and as much terrain you can get (vineyards, enclosed fields and brushes, but if nothing is available, make it at least hilly)
You will need a any positive POA you can get, and don't meet the Knights in the open

While playing I found out that the knights are hard, but troops like Heavy foot, Armoured, Heavy weapons will be the killer for your army. On the knights you can at least have concentrated fire, which they don't like when they are BG's of 4 only, like most armies have)

The real benefit is, that you are much more BG's and you can suffer moe attrition points. You have 15 with this army, and nearly non medieval army will come with more than 12.
Use this wise and try to outflank the knights with your Cav (the Guard Cav is great in this), while they are fighting your Immortals (the real best troops you can get for your points!)

Try it, and believe me: EAP are making much fun. And it shows all the players telling you shooting is of less importance in FOG that they are wrong

[grahambriggs]

Hello Hans,

I've used EAP extensively, perhaps 100 games now, and will use it later this week at IWF. I find it a good army and it has kept my interest for all this time. It has benefits as there are many varieties available to it at various time periods, and you can carry it forward into the Later Achaemenifd Persian list (though many of the troop types change). It's also an army where you tend to get a decisive result most of the time - the enemy will wish to close to comnbat to avoid the arrows. You may lose but you will normally get a game rather than a stalemate.

The strength of the army is that it combines bow shooting with some hand to hand capability. Also, much of the foot is quite happy in broken or rough ground - ideally ground that doesn't restrict shooting.

It's an army that quite likes fighting most mounted - the shooting and impact phase works in favour of the Persians. Against foot the less armour the enemy has the better. It's also quite a fast moving army - MF who move 4MU then shoot 6MU can make things happen quite quickly (not necessarily good things of course)

And that brings us to the weak point. The EAP really doesn't like armoured foot with decent close combat capabilities. The arrows bounce off and the Persians aren't good enough in close combat to hold out. You can mitigate that a bit by the historical tactic of bringing Greek hoplites if you want, but you don't really get all the bases that you might like. Or you can take the view that you can find ways of losing slowly against the enemy foot while overwhelming them elsewhere.

I hope you have fun with it - I certainly have.

Regards

Graham

[HansJansen]

The army I played on Friday was:

3 TC
Guard Cavalry Elite 2x2
Persian/Median Calvary 4x3
Crescent shield archers 465-? LF 6x3
Saka Cavalry 545-? LH 4
Bactrian cavalry 545-? 4
Other Light Horse Archers 4
599pt

Played against Classic Greek

Won quite comfortably. I think with 800pt and 900pt armies this army would suffer.
Other armies I am looking at is Later Teutonic Knights and Mamluk Egyptian. Any advice?

Thank you,

Hans Jansen.

[JCgoose]

I've been looking at doing an EAP army too and this has really shed some light on list options. Though I'd be taking the hopolites automatically. I do like the sound of the Immiortals in the list though

[WhiteKnight]

Armoured Immortals in 8s are very good troops indeed! Armoured hoplites will form a reliable battle line. In period the cavalry is good value especially as it can skirmish as well as attack in support of its own LH. However, the standard sparabara are not very durable and in competition cannot form a reliable battle line, though they are great defending a flank against opposing mounted, especially given some terrain to rush into!

I think this is a good army, too!

martin

[JCgoose]

anyone know companies with some good EAP minis?

[DaiSho]

anyone know companies with some good EAP minis?

In 15mm I don't think you can go past Xyston.

Ian

[philqw78]

The towers from Black Hat are brilliant, the other figures are nice.

[Ghaznavid]

anyone know companies with some good EAP minis?

In 15mm I don't think you can go past Xyston.

Far as I remember Xyston does neither EAP nor 15mm.

The BlackHat and Essex ones are ok, the ones from Magister Militium are better but (being ex-Chariot Minis) are a bit more slender then BH and Essex. Still the infantry can be mixed (although the Essex shields stick out). Mounted (mostly the horses) are less compatible, if at all I would only mix BH & MM.