My non-light cavalry rotated to face enemy light foot charge, then immediately rear-charged by enemy non-light cavalry?

[Ray552]

Confused about a situation in an MP game:

I had a Frankish noble cavalry unit in a woods square facing off with a Muslim armored lancer in a trail square, each in the enemy's primary ZOC.

A Muslim javelin light foot unit rear-charged my noble cavalry - my cavalry *immediately* rotated to face the charge, exposing its rear to the lancer, then was rear-charged by the lancer and fragmented.

I was under the impression that:

1. Non-light units did not rotate to face enemy light unit charges if it would expose its flank/rear to enemy non-light units that are within charge range this turn, and
2. Units (light and non-light) not already in melee only rotate to face an attack (from any angle other than directly in front) at the *end* of the current turn.

What am I missing here?

[carpenkm]

Confused about a situation in an MP game:

I had a Frankish noble cavalry unit in a woods square facing off with a Muslim armored lancer in a trail square, each in the enemy's primary ZOC.

A Muslim javelin light foot unit rear-charged my noble cavalry - my cavalry *immediately* rotated to face the charge, exposing its rear to the lancer, then was rear-charged by the lancer and fragmented.

I was under the impression that:

1. Non-light units did not rotate to face enemy light unit charges if it would expose its flank/rear to enemy non-light units that are within charge range this turn, and
2. Units (light and non-light) not already in melee only rotate to face an attack (from any angle other than directly in front) at the *end* of the current turn.

What am I missing here?

i'm sure i had the same. a cav unit was charged in the flank by a heavy inf unit. It turned to face and was then charged in the flank in the same turn by an enemy cav it had been facing? I though the same as you?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Interesting. I have not seen this happen before. Two possibilities

1) You weren't flanked. The *models* turned to face the light javelinmen, but only the banner facing actually matters. You got unlucky and dropped cohesion anyway
2) The coding to not turn effects light cavalry but not light foot? That would surprise me though.

As to carpenkm's post, that is WAD - a non-light cavalry unit will immediately turn to face when charged by a non-light infantry unit.

[Ray552]

Interesting. I have not seen this happen before. Two possibilities

1) You weren't flanked. The *models* turned to face the light javelinmen, but only the banner facing actually matters. You got unlucky and dropped cohesion anyway
2) The coding to not turn effects light cavalry but not light foot? That would surprise me though.

As to carpenkm's post, that is WAD - a non-light cavalry unit will immediately turn to face when charged by a non-light infantry unit.

Re: #1 - I distinctly remember the "Flank Attack" alert popped up when the lancers charged, meaning my unit's banner must have rotated to face the javelinmen.

Maybe because my unit was in the woods and already severely disrupted by being there?

[Edit] Just played the next turn of the game, and the banner was indeed facing the javelinmen. I say "was", because my cavalry just routed

[SnuggleBunnies]

Interesting. I have not seen this happen before. Two possibilities

1) You weren't flanked. The *models* turned to face the light javelinmen, but only the banner facing actually matters. You got unlucky and dropped cohesion anyway
2) The coding to not turn effects light cavalry but not light foot? That would surprise me though.

As to carpenkm's post, that is WAD - a non-light cavalry unit will immediately turn to face when charged by a non-light infantry unit.

Re: #1 - I distinctly remember the "Flank Attack" alert popped up when the lancers charged, meaning my unit's banner must have rotated to face the javelinmen.

Maybe because my unit was in the woods and already severely disrupted by being there?

[Edit] Just played the next turn of the game, and the banner was indeed facing the javelinmen. I say "was", because my cavalry just routed :-(

Just tested in hotseat. Confirmed that #2 is in fact what is happening. Just as your cav will turn to face if charged by non-light foot in the flank, they do the same with light foot. This is either:
1) WAD
2) An oversight, as light foot are unable to charge non-light units in the open so it rarely comes up.

I'll ping Richard to the thread so we can see if it is WAD or not.

[Ray552]

Thanks for testing it - well, I learned something new.

And thanks for pinging Richard.

[rbodleyscott]

It is (probably) an oversight. Non-lights are excluded from turning to face all light troops (if there would be a flank threat from non-light enemy) for the purpose of turning to face at the start of their turn, but the exclusion has not been included in the immediate turn code when mounted turn to face foot on impact.

However, if they don't do so, they won't be able to break off, so it might be better to leave it as it is.

Thoughts?

[SnuggleBunnies]

It is (probably) an oversight. Non-lights are excluded from turning to face all light troops (if there would be a flank threat from non-light enemy) for the purpose of turning to face at the start of their turn, but the exclusion has not been included in the immediate turn code when mounted turn to face foot on impact.

However, if they don't do so, they won't be able to break off, so it might be better to leave it as it is.

Thoughts?

Hmm. Right now, they generally won't break off, as the odds to win vs light foot are generally quite good, and breakoff doesn't seem to take flank threat into account?

So I think updating it to be consistent would be fine from a gameplay perspective, unless you prefer to keep it in as a sort of extra penalty for operating in terrain with cavalry?

[Athos1660]

What a complex case !

If I correctly understood the situation :



...then I quite like it as it is currently.

I tested a few times this situation where the light foot attacks and I came across results that I find quite good :
1) the enemy red cavalry get disrupted by the lights quite often. I think it is in this case that Richard talked about possible break-off by the charged cavalry, right ?
2) the enemy red cavalry evade quite often too
3) in some cases (maybe rarer ? maybe a bit more debatable ?) the enemy red cavalry is not disrupted by the light foot but got rear-charged by the blue cavalry during the same turn.

In the woods against cavalry, LF are not fragile little things. At the impact, they are very strong against unengaged cavalry if they succeed in catching them, much stronger than say mounted lancers rear-charging unengaged mounted lancers in the open, right ? So the results generated by the current code seems quite logical to me.

But I have no strong views about it.

PS : Tell if I miss something.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Well in forests cav are Severely Disordered, but in Rough it's only Moderate. So the question is, should the cav turn to face in both Rough and Forest? I suppose making terrain exceptions by degree is too complex

[Athos1660]

Let me just add to my previous post that there is (of course) not always a blue cavalry waiting for rear-charging. There are also cases when cav just meet a unit of light foot that rear-charge them in forest. I think that in this case, the cavalry should be able to break off (if I correctly understood what Richard meant).

(As for rough terrain, it is too late for me tonight to think it over and give an answer )

[Ray552]

Athos1660, thanks for posting the picture above, that was the exact situation.

Richard, thanks for your post - I now understand the reasoning for the rotation to face the enemy light foot (so the cavalry could break off if needed), but the problem in this case is that the break-off square was blocked by the enemy lancers.

If updating the rule would mess up other things, then I'd be in favor of leaving it alone - I just thought the situation was inconsistent with the general rule of non-lights not turning to face enemy lights if an enemy non-light could flank charge them this turn.

I'll chalk it up as "another reason why you shouldn't place cavalry in woods or rough" as SnuggleBunnies mentioned above.

[kronenblatt]

As to carpenkm's post, that is WAD - a non-light cavalry unit will immediately turn to face when charged by a non-light infantry unit.

1. And this applies only to cavalry (and not infantry), right?
2. Does cavalry turn immediately also when charged by non-light cavalry?
3. When does infantry turn?

3. Does 1, 2, and 3 apply to light units as well? I.e., does light cavalry turn immediately?

[Athos1660]

Well in forests cav are Severely Disordered, but in Rough it's only Moderate. So the question is, should the cav turn to face in both Rough and Forest? I suppose making terrain exceptions by degree is too complex

For information, the detailed tooltip for rough terrain :

[SnuggleBunnies]

As to carpenkm's post, that is WAD - a non-light cavalry unit will immediately turn to face when charged by a non-light infantry unit.

1. And this applies only to cavalry (and not infantry), right?
2. Does cavalry turn immediately also when charged by non-light cavalry?
3. When does infantry turn?

3. Does 1, 2, and 3 apply to light units as well? I.e., does light cavalry turn immediately?

1. Correct
2. No
3. Next turn
4. The same

[kronenblatt]

As to carpenkm's post, that is WAD - a non-light cavalry unit will immediately turn to face when charged by a non-light infantry unit.

1. And this applies only to cavalry (and not infantry), right?
2. Does cavalry turn immediately also when charged by non-light cavalry?
3. When does infantry turn?

3. Does 1, 2, and 3 apply to light units as well? I.e., does light cavalry turn immediately?

1. Correct
2. No
3. Next turn
4. The same

Thanks, SnuggleBunnies! And as a followup on the No to question 2, cavalry then turns next turn?

[SnuggleBunnies]

And as a followup on the No to question 2, cavalry then turns next turn?

Yes

[Ray552]

As to carpenkm's post, that is WAD - a non-light cavalry unit will immediately turn to face when charged by a non-light infantry unit.

1. And this applies only to cavalry (and not infantry), right?
2. Does cavalry turn immediately also when charged by non-light cavalry?
3. When does infantry turn?

3. Does 1, 2, and 3 apply to light units as well? I.e., does light cavalry turn immediately?

1. Correct
2. No
3. Next turn
4. The same

This is confusing - not the rules, which SnuggleBunnies explained concisely, but the reason for the rule of "all cavalry not engaged in melee will immediately rotate to face any infantry charge, even if this will expose them to flank or rear charges by non-light units this turn ."

I know this is a game and not a simulation or reality, but I find it hard to imagine the following scenario:

Non-lancer cavalry unit in woods or rough, glaring at an enemy lancer unit in front and maybe shouting abuse at them, "Come over here and die on our spears!" or "Yo' mama!"
- "Sir, enemy light foot are charging us from the rear!"
- "Right, everyone about face and fight the light foot!"
- "But sir, what about the lancers in front?"
- "Bah, they're a bunch of sissies, they wouldn't dare charge us, even with our backs turned."
- "..."

It makes even less sense if the scenario above was repeated, but this time with cataphracts/lancers/clibanarii/Mongol Imperial Death Troopers attacking from the rear, and poorly-armed rabble in front:

According to the rules above (as I understand them), the following would happen:

- "Sir, Imperial Death Trooper cavalry are charging us from the rear!"
- "Right-o, rear ranks about face and front ranks remain facing the rabble!"
- "But sir, won't we need everyone to fight the Death Troopers?"
- "Bah, you can't trust those peasants, they'll stab you in the back with a pitchfork for a sack of beans if you don't keep an eye on them."
- "..."