Irish armies

Field of Glory II: Medieval

Moderator: rbodleyscott

Post Reply
tyronec
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:09 am

Irish armies

Post by tyronec »

The Irish armies are the same for 900, 1050 and 1131. They are as follows for a 1200 point army:
Picked Foot. MI, Sup, Unprotected, Axe. 0-7
Irish Foot. MI, Unprotected, Axe. 4-18
Kerns. MI, Lightly protected, Spear, 50% Sword. 4-18
Archers. LI, Bow. 0-2
Javelins. LI, Javelin. 2-11
Slingers. LI, Sling. 0-2
The 1131 list adds cavalry:
Noble cav. Protected, spear. 0-7

All the records describe Irish armies as being predominately equipped with spears and javelins. At Clontarf their ranks were so thickly drawn up in a shield wall that a chariot could have been driven over them. The list allows for an army that could be 2/3 Axemen whereas I think 10% would be more reasonable. Am also not convinced by the Irish Foot troop type, the majority of the axemen would have been the nobles and they are already represented by the picked foot.
Probably all of the medium foot carried shields and later in the period there was some armor for the better warriors, so lightly protected for the all the Picked Foot and probably Protected for the 1131 list.
The Irish did not use bows in warfare so take them out.
The cavalry presumably represent Anglo-Normans on smaller horses which is fine.

Irish kings in the later period employed Welsh and Scots mercenaries so perhaps a couple of spear units of each in addition to the possibility of allies.

Whenever the Irish in the open came up against an English army with heavy cavalry, even in small numbers, they got ridden down. The most successful Irish army against the English was that of Tyrone in the 1500s, he won a few battles using the terrain but then at Kinsale in 1601 his army got ridden down by a few heavy cavalry and that was with him having pikes in that period. The present Irish list can stand up to Knights quite well using Picked foot to hold them for a turn or two and them swamping them - all most unhistorical.

Would suggest the following:
900 and 1050
Picked Foot. MI, Sup, Lightly protected, Axe. 0-7
Kerns. MI, Lightly protected, Spear, 50% Sword. Many
Javelins. LI, Javelin. Many
Slingers. LI, Sling. 0-2

1131
Picked Foot. MI, Sup, Protected, Axe. 0-7
Kerns. MI, Lightly protected, Spear, 50% Sword. Many
Javelins. LI, Javelin. Many
Slingers. LI, Sling. 0-2
Noble cav. Protected, spear. 0-7
Scots infantry 0-2
Welsh infantry 0-2

References:
Irish battles - Hayes-McCoy
The Tain
Various annals that I have read extracts of online.
stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 14501
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Irish armies

Post by stockwellpete »

If kerns are represented as 50% swords in 900 AD then the other troop types would have had them too, even if they are not classified as a primary weapon for them in the game. But swords were a high status weapon at this time in many parts of Europe. Would that many kerns have had them to warrant 50% capability?

(Same question applies to Brythonic foot in early Welsh list in FOG2 Ancients)


Dark Ages Irish
This range covers a large period of time, luckily for most gamer's. From what little we know, the Irish changed little in appearance from the late 4th Century through to the Viking Age and beyond. The Fianna armed with axes are the only real troops peculiar to the later period, due to the influence from Danish incursions into Ireland. Ireland was a very poor land during this period and as such armor and quality weapons were often the preserve of the noble warrior class. The vast majority of men fought with no more than javelins and a knife or short sword if they were lucky. As well as fighting on to defend their lands against the Vikings in the later period, they had been infamous as seaborne raiders for centuries before that and often plundered settlements on the western shores of England and Wales.


https://footsoreminiatures.co.uk/collec ... ages-irish
tyronec
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:09 am

Re: Irish armies

Post by tyronec »

If kerns are represented as 50% swords in 900 AD then the other troop types would have had them too, even if they are not classified as a primary weapon for them in the game. But swords were a high status weapon at this time in many parts of Europe. Would that many kerns have had them to warrant 50% capability?
About Clontarf:
'The Irish too has swords and spears and carried shields with metal bosses. The Irish missile, then and later, was the casting spear, javelin or dart.'
This is the same as the Renaissance period for which there is better information, they used essentially javelins for throwing rather than spears in hand to hand. So as they are described elsewhere as stabbing a lot I would expect them to have swords too. The MI and 50% swords seems a fair reflection of their lower quality than their opponents in hand to hand combat.
stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 14501
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Irish armies

Post by stockwellpete »

tyronec wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:08 pm About Clontarf:
'The Irish too has swords and spears and carried shields with metal bosses. The Irish missile, then and later, was the casting spear, javelin or dart.'
This is the same as the Renaissance period for which there is better information, they used essentially javelins for throwing rather than spears in hand to hand. So as they are described elsewhere as stabbing a lot I would expect them to have swords too. The MI and 50% swords seems a fair reflection of their lower quality than their opponents in hand to hand combat.
I can accept that many higher status Irish warriors had swords (or axes), but I am not convinced that Irish peasants would generally have been armed with them circa 900 AD. Is anything known about Irish armourers at this time? Where might they have got large numbers of swords from if there were not many armourers or sources of iron? It is probably one of these things that we will never be really sure about. :wink:
tyronec
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:09 am

Re: Irish armies

Post by tyronec »

I can accept that many higher status Irish warriors had swords (or axes), but I am not convinced that Irish peasants would generally have been armed with them circa 900 AD. Is anything known about Irish armourers at this time? Where might they have got large numbers of swords from if there were not many armourers or sources of iron? It is probably one of these things that we will never be really sure about. :wink:
The skills were there, as we know from many cultural items. They had access to metals from local mining and through trade. So the capacity to manufacture weapons was available, how common iron swords were is hard to know as they rust away, apparently more bronze ones have survived.
Ireland was a center of Christianity and education after the fall of Rome with many books from classical times and from Islam being copied and translated by the monks.
Nosy_Rat
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:00 pm

Re: Irish armies

Post by Nosy_Rat »

stockwellpete wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:17 pm
tyronec wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:08 pm About Clontarf:
'The Irish too has swords and spears and carried shields with metal bosses. The Irish missile, then and later, was the casting spear, javelin or dart.'
This is the same as the Renaissance period for which there is better information, they used essentially javelins for throwing rather than spears in hand to hand. So as they are described elsewhere as stabbing a lot I would expect them to have swords too. The MI and 50% swords seems a fair reflection of their lower quality than their opponents in hand to hand combat.
I can accept that many higher status Irish warriors had swords (or axes), but I am not convinced that Irish peasants would generally have been armed with them circa 900 AD. Is anything known about Irish armourers at this time? Where might they have got large numbers of swords from if there were not many armourers or sources of iron? It is probably one of these things that we will never be really sure about. :wink:
I don't think "swordsmen" capability necessary means they literally have swords, it's just catch-all term for any non-heavy non-spear hand weapons or a mix of them.
stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 14501
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Irish armies

Post by stockwellpete »

Nosy_Rat wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:28 pmI don't think "swordsmen" capability necessary means they literally have swords, it's just catch-all term for any non-heavy non-spear hand weapons or a mix of them.
Yes, maybe. :wink: I have been reading Guy Halsall's book "Warfare and Society in the Barbarian West" this morning and he talks about spearmen in Britain having a seax or scramasax as a side weapon. These are basically long knives that actually are made broader and longer as time goes on. So where "long knives" end and "short swords" begin is probably a moot point, but it seems clear that battlefield tactics evolved after about 600 AD to involve much denser formations of soldiers. Eventually these become known as "shield walls". The point is though there is not the room to wield a larger two-edged sword about (unless you are on horse back) and a shorter, stabbing, one-edged short sword is far more effective when fighting at close quarters. The Romans had the gladius for this reason.

In terms of gameplay representation, and I am working on a Dark Ages Mod with Schweetness 101, it would seem to me that the +100 POA that swords get for melee combat is a bit generous for a troop type like "Brythonic Foot". I am not sure what the correct value might be yet as we are still working on the mechanics of shield wall combat - for example, we are giving +POA bonuses and +CT bonuses to shield wall units that maintain their formation and the push back rules have been tweaked. At some point we will need to give some counter-balancing bonuses to warrior armies like the Welsh and Irish who fought against shield walls. Maybe they could work as modified "impact foot" (maybe +150 POA on impact with +75 POA in melee for short swords) in the mod?
Gator007
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:12 pm

Re: Irish armies

Post by Gator007 »

Reading the Halsall book myself, very interesting and some new perspective on the late Romans and their neighbors.
tyronec
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:09 am

Re: Irish armies

Post by tyronec »

I don't think impact foot would be appropriate for the Irish. They seemed to fight as javelin throwing skirmishers, defending in woodland sometimes using plashing to make barriers and in the open in some form of shieldwall. However the shieldwall was not that resilient - it could fight it out with later Vikings but not stand up to heavy cavalry, so light spear medium infantry seems right.
The kerns in the renaissance armies are shown with swords and daggers in the pictures from the period. They would have been the less professional troops, the better quality ones being bonnachts and gallowglass.
rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 28284
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Irish armies

Post by rbodleyscott »

I am going to tweak the Irish lists for the next update.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image
Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory II: Medieval”