AI transports in the Demyansk mission

[Rhaeg]

I just finished the Demyansk scenario in AO 1942 and was extremely frustrated by the behaviour of the AI transports that you need to keep alive for the bonus mission. I'll decribe what happened.

After a few turns the transports start their flight to the pocket in the northwest as intended. I do my best to keep them covered with my fighter planes and take down a few enemies where I can and after a few turns the planes reach the pocket with not too many losses. By now there are still some 7 or 8 turns left and here is where it gets completely messy. I'm not sure if the transports are supposed to stay inside the pocket or fly back to their home bases, but what happens is that for the remainder of the scenario, the planes keep flying into the swampy no mans land in the middle of the map, then back to the pocket, then back to the center, back to the pocket etc. etc. etc. ... the same center that is crawling with enemy planes! Every now and again they trigger ambushes and all I can do is fly my planes in to this mess every turn to keep as many transports alive as possible. Then, the AI starts bombing my frontline troops (the expensive tanks and artillery of course) and I cannot do anything to protect them since I need all my planes to keep the drunk transport pilots alive. This resulted in expensive losses for both my fighter planes and ground troops. Miraculously, I managed to complete the bonus objective with 2 transports brought back to strength 1.

Now I have no idea what these planes are supposed to do after reaching the pocket, but this can't be it...

[BaronVonKrieg]

I just finished the Demyansk scenario in AO 1942 and was extremely frustrated by the behaviour of the AI transports that you need to keep alive for the bonus mission. I'll decribe what happened.

After a few turns the transports start their flight to the pocket in the northwest as intended. I do my best to keep them covered with my fighter planes and take down a few enemies where I can and after a few turns the planes reach the pocket with not too many losses. By now there are still some 7 or 8 turns left and here is where it gets completely messy. I'm not sure if the transports are supposed to stay inside the pocket or fly back to their home bases, but what happens is that for the remainder of the scenario, the planes keep flying into the swampy no mans land in the middle of the map, then back to the pocket, then back to the center, back to the pocket etc. etc. etc. ... the same center that is crawling with enemy planes! Every now and again they trigger ambushes and all I can do is fly my planes in to this mess every turn to keep as many transports alive as possible. Then, the AI starts bombing my frontline troops (the expensive tanks and artillery of course) and I cannot do anything to protect them since I need all my planes to keep the drunk transport pilots alive. This resulted in expensive losses for both my fighter planes and ground troops. Miraculously, I managed to complete the bonus objective with 2 transports brought back to strength 1.

Now I have no idea what these planes are supposed to do after reaching the pocket, but this can't be it...

well yeah this isnt isolated thing that is happening just to you, there where few people who pointed put this already, it happened to me as well, it is probably a coding error and im sure they will fix it in future

[nexusno2000]

I just finished the Demyansk scenario in AO 1942 and was extremely frustrated by the behaviour of the AI transports that you need to keep alive for the bonus mission. I'll decribe what happened.

After a few turns the transports start their flight to the pocket in the northwest as intended. I do my best to keep them covered with my fighter planes and take down a few enemies where I can and after a few turns the planes reach the pocket with not too many losses. By now there are still some 7 or 8 turns left and here is where it gets completely messy. I'm not sure if the transports are supposed to stay inside the pocket or fly back to their home bases, but what happens is that for the remainder of the scenario, the planes keep flying into the swampy no mans land in the middle of the map, then back to the pocket, then back to the center, back to the pocket etc. etc. etc. ... the same center that is crawling with enemy planes! Every now and again they trigger ambushes and all I can do is fly my planes in to this mess every turn to keep as many transports alive as possible. Then, the AI starts bombing my frontline troops (the expensive tanks and artillery of course) and I cannot do anything to protect them since I need all my planes to keep the drunk transport pilots alive. This resulted in expensive losses for both my fighter planes and ground troops. Miraculously, I managed to complete the bonus objective with 2 transports brought back to strength 1.

Now I have no idea what these planes are supposed to do after reaching the pocket, but this can't be it...

That's how the scenario is supposed to work, I think.

[Rhaeg]

well yeah this isnt isolated thing that is happening just to you, there where few people who pointed put this already, it happened to me as well, it is probably a coding error and im sure they will fix it in future

Where do I claim I'm the only person with this issue? I see no thread on this topic yet, nor a general feedback thread on AO 1942 where it could have been posted, so I don't think it's too weird I have no idea where these "few people" are giving their feedback on this.

[BaronVonKrieg]

well yeah this isnt isolated thing that is happening just to you, there where few people who pointed put this already, it happened to me as well, it is probably a coding error and im sure they will fix it in future

Where do I claim I'm the only person with this issue? I see no thread on this topic yet, nor a general feedback thread on AO 1942 where it could have been posted, so I don't think it's too weird I have no idea where these "few people" are giving their feedback on this.

it was posted in a thread called Axis Operations 1942 Known Issues, and i wasnt attacking you just saying that it was on a global scale

[kverdon]

Yeah, this was rather frustrating for myself as well. What was really daft was that the Transports started a circuit where they would start flying from Soviet Airbase to Soviet Airbase in their circuit! It was like the Pilot is talking to the co-pilot "Well Hans no-one to kill us here, lets try the next airbase..." This of course, led to them getting ambushed. I restarted, took more fighters, and made it a priority to get the middle airfield on the Peninsula. From there I was able to wrest Air Superiority from the Soviets while expanding the ground perimeter.

[PaxusZero]

Deploy more fighters for this scenario. Get your mobile airbases as close to the swamp as you can. Put your best leaders on your fighters. Hunt enemy planes, don’t escort transports.

Because of the turn order you can’t actually escort the transports because they move, then the enemy goes. So change strategy on this one.

[brettwjohnson]

I'll agree with the original poster... This appears either a scripting error or a *really* bad design...
The start works fine, they "prepare" then "fly to target" then "Fly around randomly"

They apparently DON'T resupply the pocket (although that is their supposed mission)...

To anyone who says "this is how it's supposed to work"... I'm SURE that transport planes had nothing better to do
than fly around randomly and invite enemy fighters to shoot them down... SURE... Transport planes are either going to land or return to base, not be flying target practice...

And chasing planes around that basically say "SHOOT ME SHOOT ME" is NOT fun...

Completely ruined any immersion and more frustrating than fun...

This desperately needs a fix...

[adiekmann]

I've played this scenario a few times already and never had a problem with all of the Ju 52s surviving the battle. However, it does seem a bit lame and have wondered if it was intentional. Don't know if it was or not.

I think it may just be the way the AI decides its flight path on its turns. Have you noticed in all games it usually takes a algebraic path to wherever it's going (x and y axis)? That's true even when it's sending your own aircraft back to base at the beginning of your turn.

I think a simple solution would be just to have the AI who controls the transports go first, then you can see where they are and provide proper escort while still running the possibility of them running into a Soviet fighter. But that makes more sense than flying straight across an enemy airbase. But from the very first time I played, I realized almost immediately that I would not be able to properly "escort" them, so I adopted the strategy of hunting down the enemy aircraft instead and it's always worked out. But... yeah, it's weird to say the least.

[nexusno2000]

I've played this scenario a few times already and never had a problem with all of the Ju 52s surviving the battle. However, it does seem a bit lame and have wondered if it was intentional. Don't know if it was or not.

I think it may just be the way the AI decides its flight path on its turns. Have you noticed in all games it usually takes a algebraic path to wherever it's going (x and y axis)? That's true even when it's sending your own aircraft back to base at the beginning of your turn.

I think a simple solution would be just to have the AI who controls the transports go first, then you can see where they are and provide proper escort while still running the possibility of them running into a Soviet fighter. But that makes more sense than flying straight across an enemy airbase. But from the very first time I played, I realized almost immediately that I would not be able to properly "escort" them, so I adopted the strategy of hunting down the enemy aircraft instead and it's always worked out. But... yeah, it's weird to say the least.

This is pretty much the feedback I provided during beta testing.

My suggestion is grit your teeth, get through it and don't look back

[brumleek]

Then, the AI starts bombing my frontline troops (the expensive tanks and artillery of course) and I cannot do anything to protect them since I need all my planes to keep the drunk transport pilots alive...

Hello Rhaeg.

Other players posted a lot of good advices already and perhaps I can offer one more, even if not-so-related to weird AI behavior in this mission .

- Do you use anti-air units in your core for ground forces defense?

- Which one is you favourite? 88mm Flak is an obvious WW2 legend but did you gave a chance to 20mm quad towed AA available? Sorry I don't know the exact name (not playing right now) but I believe it is the only quad AA available and in my opinion it is one of the most valuable (if not the best) German units in the game.

- Stats look terrible on the first look but check the unit traits. 2x rapid fire and access to close defense rating of all low altitude enemy aircrafts. It literally SHREDS all fighters and tactical bombers in the game. Only strategic bombers are somewhat safe before it but I don't consider AI strat bombers as a significant threat for my ground units. All dangerous Soviet aircrafts (like Il2 or Il10) are low altitude planes.

- Standard 10 str unit for this AA costs 1 core slot. 15 str unit costs 2 core slots. For hilarious sum of 10 core slots you can create 5 impregnable "AA nests" on the map in which no low altitude AI plane finds the courage to attack.

- If it sounds interesting read on for it gets even better . This AA unit moves in unpacked state not one but two hexes - very flexible even if you are not playing with "aggressive deployment" general trait. And the cherry on top - as soon as you wipe AI air force, switch to AT mode and feel free to obliterate enemy infantry.

- The only weak side ot this AA is AT capability against heavy tanks. It is virtually not-existent, so there is really no need to use it defensively in AT role.

- I usually use 3-5 of these AAs with maximum overstrength, trained to max experience from training scenarios and... ... I just don't care about enemy planes attacking my land units at all.

- My 4 star trained 15 overstrength quad AAs will reduce enemy low altitude planes from str 10 to 3-4 easily with one shot and no special heroes attached or AA general campaign trait involved. Best thing is - your land units are completely safe and you can focus your fighters elsewhere.

Give it a try - this cheap and often overlooked unit as a true "family heirloom" and I guarantee it will serve you incredibly well all the way to Berlin.

PS: With those AAs trained up, use the new legendary AA/AT AO 1942 heroes in AT role (best paired with AT / Artilery hybrid units like Soviet captured SUs) and you will laugh around your head all day...

Cheers!

[VirgilInTheSKY]

PS: With those AAs trained up, use the new legendary AA/AT AO 1942 heroes in AT role (best paired with AT / Artilery hybrid units like Soviet captured SUs) and you will laugh around your head all day...

Cheers!

One bad news is that the 2cm FlaKvierling 38 already has Rapid Fire 2x, so they are a waste if you assign them to it. 8.8cm FlaK 36, without OS, can one shot anything any enemy country can throw at you with AA Veteran and these two, so I won't use the 2cm AAs anyway.

[brettwjohnson]

This is pretty much the feedback I provided during beta testing.

My suggestion is grit your teeth, get through it and don't look back

Glad you provided feedback...

If this is the quality we can expect, then I'm done with the series... I've bought all the DLCs to date, but this was HORRIBLE...

This is simply bad design and worse quality control...

[Rhaeg]

Then, the AI starts bombing my frontline troops (the expensive tanks and artillery of course) and I cannot do anything to protect them since I need all my planes to keep the drunk transport pilots alive...

Hello Rhaeg.

[Extensive advice]

Cheers!

Thanks a lot for writing this down! I am usually deploying one or two 88's to protect artillery and expensive tanks, but I had only one in use this time and positioned it near that airfield at the swamp's edge to help protecting the transports. If I play through this a second time I'll definitely use them now to protect my land troops and leave the escorting solely to my fighters. The tactic you describe sounds very interesting and I'll definitely try it when I go through all of the AO's again some day.

Glad you provided feedback...

If this is the quality we can expect, then I'm done with the series... I've bought all the DLCs to date, but this was HORRIBLE...

This is simply bad design and worse quality control...

Well, as frustrating/silly as it, is it is only the bonus mission of one scenario so I wouldn't let it stop you from playing the rest if you enjoyed the DLCs so far. It's something that should be fixed/changed, but I'm not going to let it spoil the rest of the scenarios.

[brumleek]

Then, the AI starts bombing my frontline troops (the expensive tanks and artillery of course) and I cannot do anything to protect them since I need all my planes to keep the drunk transport pilots alive...

Hello Rhaeg.

[Extensive advice]

Cheers!

Thanks a lot for writing this down! I am usually deploying one or two 88's to protect artillery and expensive tanks, but I had only one in use this time and positioned it near that airfield at the swamp's edge to help protecting the transports. If I play through this a second time I'll definitely use them now to protect my land troops and leave the escorting solely to my fighters. The tactic you describe sounds very interesting and I'll definitely try it when I go through all of the AO's again some day.

Glad you provided feedback...

If this is the quality we can expect, then I'm done with the series... I've bought all the DLCs to date, but this was HORRIBLE...

This is simply bad design and worse quality control...

Well, as frustrating/silly as it, is it is only the bonus mission of one scenario so I wouldn't let it stop you from playing the rest if you enjoyed the DLCs so far. It's something that should be fixed/changed, but I'm not going to let it spoil the rest of the scenarios.

Happy to help, Rhaeg.

My AO1942 "happy safe nest" on standard scenarios usually consists of:
Frontline:
- 2x tanks (one of the new T34 variants - awesome movement and Tiger P)
- 1x recon to provide accuracy buffs
Mid-line:
- 1x AT in the center covering all frontline units and midline flanks. Preferably with camouflage and double support/expert support heroes, because AI armor sometimes loves to commit suicide and save me the trouble during my turn .
- 1x infantry covering more exposed flank from enemies
Backline:
- 1x quad AA in the center covering the whole "nest"
- 1x 15cm or 21 cm Artillery, preferably on the safe backline flank. It will hardly support anything, but it will survive enemy turn untouched.

I usually use 2-3 such formations (depending on map design) and I'm using the rest of my core slots for planes or additional infantry (if I encounter heavy close terrain map). Also, I'm trying to use faster units (movement at least 5 or 6) so I can attack freely and end my turn "safe in the nest" again.

As for my air force:
- 2x Bf 109g OS to 14 and buff up their strength with heroes like 1,5x rapid fire. Also, Fast Rebase heroes are a gift from God allmighty. Such configuration usually "deletes" Soviet 10 stack airplanes in one shot with 0-1 casualty.
- 1x FW190 in basic 10 strength and buff it up with Readiness, Hit and Run and Heinrich Bär. This is my enemy "air force softener" and occasionally bomber escort. I have not encountered a single Soviet fighter that would return fire thanks to the high initiative of FW190.
- 1x Il2 with Rudel, fast rebase, and tank killer. Can pull his own weight against Soviet fighters if he is attacked.
- 1-2x best strat bombers available to help clear the woods / close terrain.
- 1-2x FW 189 for situational awareness and clearing 1str enemy air survivors.

Basically 3 fighters capable of destroying 3 enemy airplanes with 0-2 casualties per turn and some decent ground attack fun. With my Quad AAs I'm softening any Soviet airplanes that would dare to enter its range and by this strategy, I'm 99% safe from the enemy air force. Also, OS Bf 109g is quite a capable ground attacker when enemy airforce ceases to exist .

And there it is .