CEaW Grand Strategy Expansion - Fall of France Stats

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:44 pm

I want to collect and analyze the German casualty stats through the Fall of France for games played under the BJR mod with and without the proposed tweaks. See viewtopic.php?t=10807

So far I only have games prior to the tweak and games that I'm involved in. I'd like to get a more random and larger sample. So if you have the German casualty stats from other games please post them in this thread and I'll summarize in the form below. I need whether or not you're playing with the tweaks, names or user names of the players and their side, the casualty numbers (off the casualty screen) for German, the date France fell and any extenuation circumstances (e.g., the UK committed four corps and two air units to France (i.e., Case Yellow)).

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:25 pm

Here are my stats from a game after the latest BJR-mod changes.

Borger (Axis) vs Gabriele (Allies).

Here are the losses after the German 19.03.1940 turn when France surrendered.

Germany: 367628 / 312 / 598 / 0
Britain: 941732 / 0 / 312 / 0
France: 1299288 / 520 / 364 / 0

I think we should look at losses at other key points as well.
1. Start of Barbarossa
2. End of first Russian winter (some time in 1942)

Other checkpoints may be too difficult to make because of the different strategies in each game after Barbarossa starts. Will the Allies go for Torch and Husky or will they start an early Overlord etc.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:02 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Here are my stats from a game after the latest BJR-mod changes.

Borger (Axis) vs Gabriele (Allies).

Here are the losses after the German 19.03.1940 turn when France surrendered.

Germany: 367628 / 312 / 598 / 0
Britain: 941732 / 0 / 312 / 0
France: 1299288 / 520 / 364 / 0

I think we should look at losses at other key points as well.
1. Start of Barbarossa
2. End of first Russian winter (some time in 1942)

Other checkpoints may be too difficult to make because of the different strategies in each game after Barbarossa starts. Will the Allies go for Torch and Husky or will they start an early Overlord etc.

OK. I believe I have those stats for some past games that I played. I'll have to check my notes. We certainly can capture those for on going games. We'll just have to do the best we can for past games prior to the mod. However; we can request this data for anyone who's playing the BJR mod (w/o tweaks).

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:09 pm

In order to get a complete picture; especially for the Fall of France, I also needed "estimated" UK losses. These usually have to be estimated because the UK casualty numbers include the "neutrals" invaded and conquered by Germany (i.e., Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece). I will update the table to include estimated UK losses. I just conquered France in one of my two on-going games as the Axis. Here's the raw data:

Ronnie (Axis) vs Gabrielle (Allies) w/BJR+tweaks. France Conquered on June 7, 1940. German losses => 553,960 884 702 0. Estimated UK losses => 0 0 390 0.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:07 pm

First cut. All constructive comments and other data welcomed. The last column is the difference of the German and UK repair costs. This stat tries to "normalize" the cost of taking out France across the level of UK's commitment to its defense. As you can see all but one game are games that I'm involved in. To truly get a random sampling I need many other games not involving me.

jjdenver · Post by **jjdenver** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:35 pm

jj (allies) v michael (axis)
date: 3/19/40
mod: bjr-tweaked-new
ge inf: 473, 384
ge tk: 936
ge plane: 442
ge ship: 15

uk lost i think 1 STR step and 4 FTR step - that's it.
fr built 1 inf, 1 leader, repaired air once, other than that built only garrisons

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:10 am

jjdenver wrote:jj (allies) v michael (axis)
date: 3/19/40
mod: bjr-tweaked-new
ge inf: 473, 384
ge tk: 936
ge plane: 442
ge ship: 15

uk lost i think 1 STR step and 4 FTR step - that's it.
fr built 1 inf, 1 leader, repaired air once, other than that built only garrisons

Stats Updated.

ncali · Post by **ncali** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:51 pm

It's good to know I'm not the only one that writes the casualty figures down from time to time.

Here are the statistics from 3 games I played with the BJR mod before playing Ronnie. Note I sometimes rounded the figures when I wrote them down, particularly for overall casualties, but it should be pretty close. I hope this is helpful. You can estimate the steps from the figures.

(1) Dave (Axis) v. Bob (Allies), 8/6 France Falls [first game] BJR Mod
Germany = 1002000 (rounded), 2028 tanks, 1742 planes , 50 ships
[Italy = 20000, 0, 78, 20]
UK (Estimate) = 170000, 0, 832, 75

(2) Bob (Axis) v. Dave (Allies), 6/7 France Falls BJR Mod
Germany = 1087000 (rounded), 884 tanks, 1092 planes, 65 ships
[Italy - No casualties]
UK (Estimate) = 280000, 0, 546, 50

(3) Dave (Axis) v. Bob (Allies), 8/6 France Falls [second game] BJR Mod
Germany = 669000 (rounded), 988 tanks, 1430 planes, 165 ships
[Italy = 0, 0, 52, 0]
UK (Estimate) = 170000, 0, 572, 150

EDIT: I adjusted the UK casualty figures to account for Denmark (previously they had accounted for Poland, Holland, and Belgium).

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:05 am

ncali wrote:It's good to know I'm not the only one that writes the casualty figures down from time to time.

Here are the statistics from 3 games I played with the BJR mod before playing Ronnie. Note I sometimes rounded the figures when I wrote them down, particularly for overall casualties, but it should be pretty close. I hope this is helpful. You can estimate the steps from the figures.

(1) Dave (Axis) v. Bob (Allies), 8/6 France Falls [first game] BJR Mod
Germany = 1002000 (rounded), 2028 tanks, 1742 planes , 50 ships
[Italy = 20000, 0, 78, 20]
UK (Estimate) = 220000, 0, 832, 75

(2) Bob (Axis) v. Dave (Allies), 6/7 France Falls BJR Mod
Germany = 1087000 (rounded), 884 tanks, 1092 planes, 65 ships
[Italy - No casualties]
UK (Estimate) = 330000, 0, 546, 50

(3) Dave (Axis) v. Bob (Allies), 8/6 France Falls [second game] BJR Mod
Germany = 669000 (rounded), 988 tanks, 1430 planes, 165 ships
[Italy = 0, 0, 52, 0]
UK (Estimate) = 220000, 0, 572, 150

Dave, I justed wanted to confirm that the UK losses exclude minor neutrals and Poland. Is that so?

ncali · Post by **ncali** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:51 am

Dave, I justed wanted to confirm that the UK losses exclude minor neutrals and Poland. Is that so?

Yes, I had the figures for Poland (and subtracted them from the UK total) and did my best to estimate the losses for Belgium and Holland. I just realized I forgot Denmark so I went ahead and adjusted the UK figures to subtract for that as well.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:58 am

... Updated ...

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:00 am

... Updated ...

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:01 am

-- updated --

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:20 am

-- updated --

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:27 am

Wow ... stats sure can hurt. We have stats for our first four games with the BJR mod version 1.05. All four games involve me (two as the Allies and two as the Axis). As the Allies the average fall date for France is April 18, 1940 and the average German to UK PP repair differential is 332 1/2 PPs. As the Axis the average conquer date is May 8, 1940 and the average German to UK PP repair differential is 453 1/2 PP. Thus, it takes me (on average) 20 days longer and 121 PPs more for me to conquer France than it does when I'm defending. Ouch!

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:46 pm

I added average statistics by build. We don't have enough samples yet to draw any definite conclusions.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:18 pm

Added Jim (Axis) vs Borger (Allies) game with BJRver1.05.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:36 pm

Added Borger (Axis) vs Joe (Allies) and Ronnie (Axis) vs Dave (Allies).

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:20 pm

Can you also add the following game results from my solo game with v1.06?

Borger (Axis) vs Borger (Allies)

German losses: 342448 - 1040 - 494 - 10
UK losses: 982020 - 0 - 338 - 5
French losses: 1520872 - 780 - 286 - 0

Fall of France: 28.04.1940

Britain only lost 2 air steps and a BB step.

These are the main changes between v1.05 and v1.06 (still in development) i France and Britain.
* Changed the rivers in France and Belgium
* Narrowed the Ardennes forest
* Cornwall and Devon are now rough

V1.06 is quite different from v1.05 in many areas.
* The entire map is reviewed and many improvements are made. Paul will post the map in the appropriate thread for everyone to have a look
* Changed Syria into Vichy terrain. Instead the British reinforcements that spawned there will start in Iraq and Egypt.
* Added units to the Axis minors and also Russia in the south. This was necessary because the terrain in Bessarabia was wrong. It was shown as rough, but it's really clear terrain. Added the Prut river along the new Russo - Romanian border. Russia will have some more garrisons here to compensate for not being in good terrain anymore. The southern front held longer than the other fronts after Barbarossa started.
* Changed the motorized corps into mech corps.

It's therefore very interesting to see if the map changes will affect the time France falls and the losses both sides suffer.

My experience with the new map so far is that the French now have more defensive lines they can use. So it's a good strategy for them to fall back to a new defensive line when the first one is compromised. And so on. The old map only had one formidable defensive line south of Lille (river and forest) and when this line was breached the next line was the Seine itself near Paris. Now the French have the Schelde river in Belgium, then the Somme river. the Meuse has been added as well.

It was more fun now to defend with France because you had to withdraw several times and form the new line. So it's not all over if one defensive line is breached. You can still form obstacles for the Germans to buy time. The Germans had to attack across river more often to keep momentum and that meant some higher losses, especially in the armor.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:47 am

Added Borger vs Borger v1.06 (beta).