Support shooting

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:54 pm

Had this happen on Saturday.

I charged a BG of Medium Bow two bases wide and four deep.

I charged the corner of the bow BG with a four wide BG infantry at an angle

As I stepped forward I caught the second rank of Bow, do the third rank give fire support ie we both rolled 4 dice do the archers get a dice for support shooting with the third rank.

At the same time as this was happening I charged the Archers in the rear with LH BG, I know the foot turn around to fight but do they get rear support shooting as well.

Dave

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:13 pm

I'm pretty sure that the book says you don't get support shooting against a flank or rear charge.

A non-flank charge contacting a non-front base is treated the same as a charge on the front base, so you would get support shooting. This would apply even if the contact was on a second rank and there was no third rank. I think this was clarified in the FAQ in connection with ranks of pikemen counting, but the same principle should apply to support shooting.

Lycanthropic · Post by **Lycanthropic** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:32 am

Does it say - a supporting rank of Bw gets to provide shooting in the impact phase if itself is not charged on a Wednesday......while standing on a hill in an enclosed field........in the rain....at noon......and there is wind....a southerly.....and your opponents second name is Jim??
No? Then 4 dice plays 6.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:34 am

Lawrence is spot on.

If a non flank charge steps forwards and contacts a base in the second, third, fourth .... rank then as there are more bases in contact more dice are rolled but the bases of the charged BG all count the same POA and support options as the first rank.

You cannot for example charge the side of the rear rank of a pike formation and claim that the pike are not 4 deep so they get no POAs.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:52 am

Hitting a BG in the side when not a flank charge counts as if hitting the front, so they would get support shooting

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:23 am

Correct.

This is partly becayse a BG represent several units so in reality the figures don't just sit there like statues waiting to be clobberred. You are not far enough round to cause a serious problem with such a contact.

Si

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:25 am

shall wrote:You are not far enough round to cause a serious problem with such a contact.

And anyway any rule set I know use a such threshold way to determine when a charge can claim to be a flank charge. I never saw a rule set which treats flank charge without to use a precise condition to determine if a charge is a flank charge or not.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:19 pm

How many support shooters? For example, two bases of an angled charge contact two bases of an enemy who have second rank bow. The contacted bases are the first and second rank bases of an end file. Two bases of each side are in contact, assuming no other factors, 4 dice each for impact contact.

If the contacted BG is entitled to rear support shooting, does it get:
a) 2 dice of shooting, even though one file only has been contacted, it is treated as two front rank contacts 4 + 2 dice
b) 1 die of shooting as only one file is involved - 4 combat and 1 shooting dice
c) 0 dice of shooting because the shooting base is counted as a combat base 4 + 0 dice

The above discussion appears to be ruling out option (c), it hints at (a).
This came up in a game last week and we went with (c). If the answer is in fact (a), there may be a need for some clarification. Getting to roll six impact dice for a single file in combat is not immediately obvious.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:17 pm

rogerg wrote:How many support shooters? For example, two bases of an angled charge contact two bases of an enemy who have second rank bow. The contacted bases are the first and second rank bases of an end file. Two bases of each side are in contact, assuming no other factors, 4 dice each for impact contact.

If the contacted BG is entitled to rear support shooting, does it get:
a) 2 dice of shooting, even though one file only has been contacted, it is treated as two front rank contacts 4 + 2 dice
b) 1 die of shooting as only one file is involved - 4 combat and 1 shooting dice
c) 0 dice of shooting because the shooting base is counted as a combat base 4 + 0 dice

The above discussion appears to be ruling out option (c), it hints at (a).
This came up in a game last week and we went with (c). If the answer is in fact (a), there may be a need for some clarification. Getting to roll six impact dice for a single file in combat is not immediately obvious.

Hints? At least 5 of the answers above, including one from an author, say that it's (a). How much more of a hint do you want?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:24 pm

Roger, I think the key point is treated as a frontal contact. If it was a BG of Immortals that was hit in this way the second rank base contacted would (IMO, but I could get shot down here

) also get the + for light spear at impact as well as a shot.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:08 pm

philqw78 wrote:Roger, I think the key point is treated as a frontal contact. If it was a BG of Immortals that was hit in this way the second rank base contacted would (IMO, but I could get shot down here ) also get the + for light spear at impact as well as a shot.

Absolutely, just like the 2nd-4th ranks of a 4 deep pike formation count as having three supporting ranks.

Essentially the rule is a cheese elimination rule. You don't get a clever benefit for charging the corner of a unit with two wedges or anything silly like that.

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:28 pm

Indeed ... we are aiming for a chesse shop of the Monty Python variety.

Mr Wensleydale

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:30 pm

Its an Emporium

Can't remember if its got a Bazooki though

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:49 pm

Thanks everyone for the answers. I wanted to be completely sure. I still bet there will be someone calling in the umpire when I announce my two bases of contacted Assyrians will be rolling 6 dice.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:51 pm

rogerg wrote:Thanks everyone for the answers. I wanted to be completely sure. I still bet there will be someone calling in the umpire when I announce my two bases of contacted Assyrians will be rolling 6 dice.

Well I will be glad to oblige if I am said umpire.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:18 pm

Just been reading the rules regarding supporting shooting.

"Foot armed with certain missile weapons will attempt to inflict damage on enemy chargers by shooting over the ranks in front. This is represented by support shooting from a rank behind the one fighting in the impact phase and allows additional combat dice"

I have no problem with the front base getting an additional dice from the second rank - but the second rank base cannot get an additional dice from support shooting unless there is a third rank in the formation.

This is different to the Pike example as they are counting factors as if though they were four ranks deep, but not getting any extra dice.

If somebody wants to claim that if you have a two deep formation which will get six dice in the impact phase then I am afraid you will have to back up how you would like the game to be played with an actual quote from the rulebook

As far as I read it then five dice would be the number in this example.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:33 am

Option (b) rears its head.
The argument is that the contact is not a flank charge, so it must be the same as a frontal impact. If the contact involves rolling 4 dice for two bases fighting, then the equivalent number of rear rank shooters must be 2, because that is what you would get if two bases were contacted frontally.

The principle this is based on is that there must be no advantage from attempting an angled contact into the second rank is it is not a flank charge. If we follow your argument, there are three types of contact, front, flank and the new angled front.

Perhaps it would be better described as:
The front rank gets 2 dice per base, the rear rank gets 1 for support shooting. Once this is determined, you look at how many bases are touching to determine how many dice are rolled by each side. Effectively this is similar to the pike example - a file of 4 ranks of pike gets ++. Even though it is one file, if two bases are contacted, four dice are rolled. The factor determination is not done by looking at individual bases, but by looking at the file as a whole. This is consistent with the general FoG system where fighting is done by file and the factors are those of the front rank base.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:53 am

The argument is that the contact is not a flank charge, so it must be the same as a frontal impact. If the contact involves rolling 4 dice for two bases fighting, then the equivalent number of rear rank shooters must be 2, because that is what you would get if two bases were contacted frontally.

If you contacted a base frontally and there was no rear rank would it get support shooting dice? This is the key to the argument I think.

I think you are agreeing with me Roger? i.e. five dice with factors as if hit frontally?

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:28 am

I'm disagreeing with you Dave. I believe that 6 dice are rolled. A two rank file with a support shooter in the second rank, impacted frontally, counts 2 + 1 dice per file.
If two bases of each side are in contact, the fight is as if two files are contacted, result 4 + 2 dice. It is immaterial that one of the contacted bases is in the second rank and has been contacted on its side edge. The contact is not a flank charge so it must not be resolved any differently to any other frontal charge.

If a pike file is hit on first and second rank by an angled charge, the factors are not one base with three ranks behind and a second base with two ranks behind. The factors are for one file of four ranks fighting with two bases contacted. I am applying this principle to the bow. The second rank bow being contacted is no different to the second rank pike being contacted. The front rank base determines the factors. The only effect of hitting the side of the second rank base is to double up the dice rolled.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:39 am

It is immaterial that one of the contacted bases is in the second rank and has been contacted on its side edge. The contact is not a flank charge so it must not be resolved any differently to any other frontal charge.

But it isn't resolved differently from a frontal contact? If a frontally contacted base did not have a second rank it would not be eligible for rear support shooting would it? Therefore a second rank base contacted counts as having been contacted frontally and since it does not have a supporting rank it cannot claim overhead shooting.

As previously mentioned - the factors remain the same but the number of dice thrown is variable. The bottom line is that you must have a rear rank to provide overhead shooting! If you haven't then by definition you can't.