Free France Campaign

[bru888]

Several pictures here: https://www.kuriocity.fr/30-photos-de-l ... iale-1944/

Good source! I plucked several good photos from that site, including one that reminded me of something important (de Gaulle refusing to abandon Strasbourg to suit Eisenhower who was trying to shore up the front lines in response to the Battle of the Bulge, now a campaign message.)

[...] In the light of these few additions, do you really want to continue with this idea of having the very same map for these two next scenarios or rather consider making now two distinct maps altogether?

Well, now I'm no longer sure about it... the last research I've made shows that it may indeed be perfectly fine to use the very same map... and it would be much easier anyway, if there would directly be enough room... Same map for both scenarios. It may be stretching Operation Nordwind a bit, but the Germans did come close to Strasbourg from both north and south, so it will do. See below.

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[bru888]

... you may be a little disappointed in that there is no way I could program into this scenario all of the details that you provided. The attack will generally occur along the lines of history, and it will involve the friendly and enemy units that you have identified, in generally the positions in which they were to begin the battle ... I cannot fine-tune it to the extent that you describe from that document and your other sources. Too much detail and too finely choreographed to replicate. As usual, we will adhere to history as a background but there will be some variation for the sake of gameplay. And it will be much simpler than most of what you presented. Don't be concerned; I have gleaned some good things from all of that. Just don't look for the rest and be overly disappointed.

Take, for example, what you said here: "Well, do you rember, there should be 2 German divisions [actually, I count 3 — you are overlooking the 716th VGD] defending the lines in front of the troops. But two others, the 361st VGD and the remnants of the 11th Pz Div not very far in the North... The North, it's NOT the East where Strasbourg stands. To let the French go for Strasbourg, we may have to send the American elsewhere... so why not up North to deal with this 361st VGD (and few Panzers as well)?"

How to mandate that? You know as well as I do that the player will do whatever he want to do, often the unexpected, so how do you propose that we make him send the U.S. troops north to deal with those divisions while Leclerc gets set up to do his dash to Strasbourg? The player will be sending U.S. units all over the map as he sees fit (unless we do something harsh like remove all U.S. units at some point, which I don't want to do).

Remember that I said "generally" this would reflect history. So, in order to give the flavor of the French being given the honour and responsibility for liberating Strasbourg, I have tweaked two objectives highlighted here:

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The objectives are explained as follows:

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French forces are required to do these things. That gets the point across, even though it's not Leclerc's orchestrated dash to Strasbourg that you were imagining. This should suffice for storytelling purposes as well as being fun while allowing for flexibility in the way the player chooses to play this scenario.

[ColonelY]

Now, here's a tiny little bunch of ideas about what could be used:

1. To somehow depict the "surprise" effect, the differents forts could be on "idle" until either the first damage is done to them or until the first Free French unit is at 3 hexes away (or less) from the golden star flag... then, a pop-up saying that defenders are rushing now to their positions and forts are about to become active... All forts to be manned from the beginning. See next item.

2. One of the 4 western forts, randomly chosen at scenario start, could be captured instead of simply destroyed (same concept than the bunkers in Paris)... let's make them taste a little their own medicine as well, adding as well more variation to the scenario (another "unique" unit to handle wisely)... All forts will be captured when "destroyed." This will set up an unusual (interesting? hilarious?) situation in which we could have dueling fortresses!

[...]

Some comments about these two points:

1. "See next item"? Okay, but I'm not sure I see what this changes... some forts may be captured and there may be fort to fort shooting anyway. So that's a given. On the other hand, it will maintain the initial effect of the "serious killing zone"... and that was the point that worried you...

EDIT: And it will allow to make a small event to talk about the (historical) surprise. It's normal, by the way...

Look at it this way: for a German general in Strasbourg, the fighting is taking place on the other side of the Vosges (an almost impassable natural barrier) and the logical access route has been extremely well fortified, locked... so, no worries for the time being!
Then, very few (if any) German units between the East of the Vosges and Strasbourg... this also means nobody who can discover the lightning advance of the French and relay this information... so, no information is received anyway until the French are under the walls of Strasbourg itself!


2. About the forts:
Well, why not add a random component? Let some forts, and only some forts, be randomly "chosen" at the beginning of the scenario as going to change flags once defeated... more than one, okay, fine. But all of them, that would be too much.

If our troops can take care of the first forts, they can continue in the same way... with the support of some of these forts, converted.

If all the forts are converted/convertible, then we could have the extreme case where our troops stay on the outskirts of the city, take all the forts... and then it reverses the effect of the "serious killing zone" with all those forts clearing the city. That would clearly be too much! But if you don't get it right, that's what some players will certainly do... and then it might still be hilarious, but it would lose its meaning.

No, we need to limit the number of convertible forts. After all, some might be too badly damaged or, for some reason, unable to turn their guns in directions not originally intended...

It was different for the bunkers in Paris, because there they corresponded to sites that had to be preserved...

This will not change anything, by the way, for the next scenario: there, the whole barrier of forts will be available... the damage could have been repaired, thanks to the respite, that's plausible!

But for this scenario, I think that converting, say, 3 forts will be more than enough (i.e. almost half of them already: for some internal battling, that's good enough!) and will remain within the realm of the plausible, but mostly reasonable. And for this to be relevant, useful, let's favour the most western forts. Let us choose, at random, some of these forts. What do you think about this?

[ColonelY]

French forces are required to do these things. That gets the point across, even though it's not Leclerc's orchestrated dash to Strasbourg that you were imagining. This should suffice for storytelling purposes as well as being fun while allowing for flexibility in the way the player chooses to play this scenario.

Yeah, that'll do it nicely.

[ColonelY]

As for the Americans, I totally agree with the fact of keeping their ground units on the battlefield during the whole scenario!

Of course, the player will probably send some of them to Strasbourg too...

BUT, we could always take into account the enemy units on the flanks (the two in the North-West and also, it's true, the one in the South-West, the 716th VGD)... in a mission of securing the rear and the flanks (to avoid major supply issues for the troops who rush to Strasbourg, for example), the cleaning could still be entrusted... to the Americans!

Let them inflict enough damage, destroy enough German units among these three "flanking" divisions... that will keep them busy elsewhere anyway, won't it? Or most of them, at least, right? And we still have room for primary objectives, don't we?

[ColonelY]

To complete the info I gave previously, here is the German 716th VGD probable OoB:

Sources: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/716e_divi ... Allemagne) which is more complete than the English equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/716th_Sta ... Wehrmacht)

More complete? Yes, because this division has fought in Normandy first (hence the term "static", due to the fortifications somehow fixing many of their artillery pieces).

Anyway, here is a translated part from the French webpage:

"The losses of the division in Normandy are estimated at 6,300 men. The 716th ID was effectively evacuated from the Normandy front between 1 and 20 July 1944.


The end of the war

The 716th Infantry Division was transferred to the Côte d'Azur, under the authority of the German 19th Army.

In August 1944, it was 7,400 men strong.

It then fought in the Rhone valley and in Alsace, during the battle of the Colmar pocket (January-February 1945), where it was totally destroyed.

Reformed on April 14, 1945, the division, reduced to the size of a Kampfgruppe, was captured by American forces in Kempten at the end of the war."

So, despite the names, it was indeed this division!

From the English page:

"Many of the division's troops were elderly Germans and conscripts from other German-occupied countries, especially Ukrainians. The Division also had some young German conscripts as well. As a bodenständig (Static Unit) it was not equipped with the standard configuration of vehicles and heavy weapons. Much of the division's artillery and anti-tank guns were from captured armaments."

Two things: again some elements from OstLegions in there (at least the two former 439th Ost Battalion and 642nd Ost Battalion). More importantly: "artillery and AT guns from captured armaments"... that may offer a cool opportunity to put some of the units that we don't see very often on the map!

OoB (according to the French webpage):

Novembre 1944

Grenadier-Regiment 706
Grenadier-Regiment 726
Grenadier-Regiment 736
Artillerie-Regiment 1716
Divisions-Füsilier-Bataillon 716
Panzerjäger-Abteilung 716
Pionier-Bataillon 716
Nachrichten-Abteilung 716
Versorgungstruppen 716

[ColonelY]

I suggest to set up a (very) strong German defense towards Saverne (with several heavy infantry units and strong AT-guns, one rocket-launcher perhaps, some good artillery, perhaps even one supporting tank, etc.)

Two reasons:
1. It is logical in itself, because it is an important crossing point and even a crossing point that the enemy thinks we have to pass through!
2. The Germans must be able to resist there long enough and strongly enough to give the player the time and the desire to also carry out a circumvention and encircling maneuver by the (undefended) road, well or rather path , just south!

We won't force the player to go that way (well, we could depending on how the objectives are adjusted, but let's move on for good!), BUT we can/should suggest this route as well to the player (whose info was obtained - it's historical! - thanks to the partisans and, despite the very bad weather*, the French reconnaissance squadron).


*By the way, it should be raining when the scenario starts...

[ColonelY]

By the way, to keep the US infantrymen busy, the "Natzweiler concentration camp" is typically an objective for the American as well.

Why? Well, considering the Allied ground troops available overall, the surrounding terrain is not very favorable to French armored vehicles... and History, because it was the Americans who went there first!

[ColonelY]

By the way, on the latest printscreen, it looks like (but maybe it's just some optical illusion) that the roads and railroads are not complete in Strasbourg...

[bru888]

Here, this will generally (that word again) tend to accomplish what you suggest:

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The descriptions of the two ally-specific primary objectives:

All three key points in the city must be captured by French forces. This reflects the courtesy of allowing the French to have the honour of liberating their own city.

According to the battle plan, these six key points on the periphery of the map must be captured by American forces. When this mission is completed, time will be allowed for the completion of secondary objectives.

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Notice that the northwest objectives, Loudrefing and Fénétrange, will involve the Americans in confronting the retreating 361 VGD and 11 Panzer. This is both the best I can do, I believe, and all that I want to do in order to force the player to play this scenario historically.

[bru888]

I see no good reason for randomising fort staffing. Why would the Germans NOT man their forts when they are seeing, hearing, and receiving reports of fighting in the Vosges passes? It does not make sense that they will wait to the last minute to run to their forts, and then choose to occupy only three or four of them. The only reason why I might do as you suggest is if you tell me that this scenario is too tough with all seven forts in action.

But as usual, you do make some good points. For example, what if a fort is destroyed by air? Does it instaneously convert to French ownership? Not realistic. Also, the idea of forts firing at each other in some sort of duel is ridiculous. Moreover, you're right about converted forts firing on the enemy in the city; that would dilute the task of assaulting it and decrease the fun.

I want the forts to survive after being "destroyed" for two reasons: More realism; a fort should not just disappear when captured. Also, I want all seven forts to be in French hands to assist in the defense of Strasbourg in Operation Nordwind. (In that one, the destroyed forts will disappear!)

So here is the decision. When forts are taken in Strasbourg, they will convert to the neutral faction. By this, I don't mean no-man's land. I mean the impassible zone. The reasoning will be that it would be impractical for the forts to be instaneously ready for offensive actions, having just been partially destroyed in combat. I will provide a popup message that explains this.

[bru888]

Actually, I got a slightly different read on the 716th OoB. Here are the notes on the lineups, keeping in mind that the PzG regiments will be the only ones that have naming differentiation (the others are like "Flugabwehr / 361st VGD"):

Volkgrenadierdivision (VGD) - use this as a template for all VGD
- 3 infantry regiments with 3 battalions
- 1 artillery regiment with 4 groups
- 1 reconnaissance battalion
- 1 flak battalion
- 1 anti-tank battalion
- 1 engineer battalion

361st VGD
Grenadier-Regiment 951
Grenadier-Regiment 952
Grenadier-Regiment 953

553rd VGD
Grenadier-Regiment 1119
Grenadier-Regiment 1120
Grenadier-Regiment 1121

708th VGD
Ost Regiment 360
Grenadier-Regiment 728
Grenadier-Regiment 748

716th VGD
Ost Regiment 441
Grenadier-Regiment 726
Grenadier-Regiment 736

11th Panzer Division
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw V Panther G)
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw V Panther G)
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw VI E Tiger)
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw VI E Tiger)
Sturmpanzer / 11th Panzer (Flammpanzer III)
111th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
111th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
111th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
110th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
110th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
110th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
Panzerjäger / 11th Panzer (Jagdpanther)
Flugabwehr / 11th Panzer (Wirbelwind)
Artillerie / 11th Panzer (Hummel)
Aufklärung / 11th Panzer (SdKfz 234 Puma)
Pionier / 11th Panzer (StuG IIIG)

As you pointed out, we saw this division in Operation Dragoon, at full strength. You mentioned "remnants" in conjunction with the 11th PzD. Do you think we should have only part of this division show up? If so, how much of it? Keep in mind that we have only three Allied divisions versus five German divisions (although a couple of them will be on mountain pass guard duty, waiting to be annihilated) PLUS the Strasbourg and town garrisons. On the other hand, the Allies will have air power once the weather clears.

[bru888]

By the way, on the latest printscreen, it looks like (but maybe it's just some optical illusion) that the roads and railroads are not complete in Strasbourg...

The reason I did this is because the city just looks better without running roads and railroads all the way through it. I figured that any movement bonus that these would provide is not necessary in the city.

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[ColonelY]

[...] Notice that the northwest objectives, Loudrefing and Fénétrange, will involve the Americans in confronting the retreating 361 VGD and 11 Panzer. This is both the best I can do, I believe, and all that I want to do in order to force the player to play this scenario historically.

And I would say this seems just perfect to me now! Thanks

[ColonelY]

I see no good reason for randomising fort staffing. Why would the Germans NOT man their forts when they are seeing, hearing, and receiving reports of fighting in the Vosges passes? It does not make sense that they will wait to the last minute to run to their forts, and then choose to occupy only three or four of them. The only reason why I might do as you suggest is if you tell me that this scenario is too tough with all seven forts in action. [...]

Well, my friend, I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough about all that.

1. There was a surprise effect (it's historical) precisely because they didn't receive any report!
Of course, they knew there was a battle in the distance, but they did not expect the Saverne position to fall so quickly because of the action of the French... a bypass movement to the south. The general who was captured there (and therefore could not send a message either) would later say that he was surprised to be sent to Leclerc's temporary HQ which had been set up not to the west, but to the southeast! Then the last Germans (still West of Saverne, that is) were somehow surrounded and (except perhaps by radio communication) unable to send some messenger to Strasbourg...
Secondly, the Germans had communication problems, precisely: the first two divisions in front of the allied troops were not attached to the same grouping, or army corps. Then there was, in the middle of the battle, a change of general at the head of one of these two divisions, to simplify... So, yes, the German organization, as a result, had a bit of a problem , if I may say so.

2. For us, the idea was to have ALL forts used by the Germans.

3. At first, any destroyed fort was to be put ("recreated", "respawned") under the neutral faction, indeed.

4. Then came the idea that perhaps ONE of them could raise instead the Free French flag, to add a little something and more variation... this one randomly chosen amongst the western forts, and perhaps only if there is a Free French land unit just next to it (in case it's from bombers)...

That was the idea.

Then you talked about ALL forts, and that's where there was a little misunderstanding: you meant all the forts from the start in German hands, while I thought you meant, from then on, all the forts that would fly the Free French flag once captured.

And that's when I answered: all French? No, that would be too much. So, in compromise, I started talking about 3 or 4 forts that would become French instead of one.

But, for me, it was always a question of all the forts being in German hands from the start.
You had a fear, which I shared, that it could be a lot in terms of firepower.

Hence the idea that all the forts in German hands from the start (with their flag) would only start opening fire a "little later"... The surprise effect!

[ColonelY]

Actually, I got a slightly different read on the 716th OoB. [...]

716th VGD
Ost Regiment 441 => It seems that the 441st Ost Battalion was there in June 44, in Normandy... In November, a third regiment, namely this one "Grenadier-Regiment 706" is supposed to have been there (according to wiki, both English and French webpages... for the French one, it's near the very end of the webpage...
Grenadier-Regiment 726
Grenadier-Regiment 736
[...]

But, on overall, I do like these references to Ost Elements, because it's historical and it adds both to the immersion and to the variation of units in presence.

[ColonelY]

[...]
11th Panzer Division
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw V Panther G)
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw V Panther G)
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw VI E Tiger)
15th Reg / 11th Panzer Div (PzKw VI E Tiger)
Sturmpanzer / 11th Panzer (Flammpanzer III)
111th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
111th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
111th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
110th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
110th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
110th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer (German Infantry '44)
Panzerjäger / 11th Panzer (Jagdpanther)
Flugabwehr / 11th Panzer (Wirbelwind)
Artillerie / 11th Panzer (Hummel)
Aufklärung / 11th Panzer (SdKfz 234 Puma)
Pionier / 11th Panzer (StuG IIIG)

As you pointed out, we saw this division in Operation Dragoon, at full strength. You mentioned "remnants" in conjunction with the 11th PzD. Do you think we should have only part of this division show up? If so, how much of it? Keep in mind that we have only three Allied divisions versus five German divisions (although a couple of them will be on mountain pass guard duty, waiting to be annihilated) PLUS the Strasbourg and town garrisons. On the other hand, the Allies will have air power once the weather clears.

3 vs 5, yes, I've noticed. But when the scenario will start, it may actually be more like our 3 divisions vs the 2 German divisions the closest to them... thus to 3 vs 2 in our favor! Then, basically back to 3 vs 3... so, I would say a good challenge, but nothing too worrisome.

Only a part of the 11th PzD, that may be a good idea. Now, let's see...
1. I would say it would be better to keep most of the German armored units , as there shouldn't be that much of them otherwise on this battlefield.
2. In principle, it should be the task of US infantrymen... so we shouldn't have too many tanks up there, so the German Jagdpanther won't be useful (and this unit is even relatively weak against infantry)...
3. If this division will be relatively close to a German infantry division, then this PzD will already benefit from the support of the infantry of this nearby division... so one could relatively safely remove some of its regular infantry, perhaps 1 "111th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer" and 1 "110th PzG Reg / 11th Panzer", so that we keep like this 2 units of each kind instead of 3.

I would say, for a first step, let's take away 2 regular Infantry units and the Jagdpanther (relatively recent, so in smaller quantities anyway - so to compensate for recent losses...). Then, we'll see when testing this scenario if one needs to remove more...

[ColonelY]

I insist, if I may: Saverne must be very well defended! (Even if it means adding garrison units. )

Oh, and don't forget, please, that there should be a few units (2 or maybe 3?) of Volkssturm to help in the defense of Strasbourg!

[ColonelY]

Oh, and I think there should be some anti-tank capability for the American division that starts the furthest north, i.e. the one that is almost inevitably likely to encounter the PzD.

[ColonelY]

By the way, on the latest printscreen, it looks like (but maybe it's just some optical illusion) that the roads and railroads are not complete in Strasbourg...

The reason I did this is because the city just looks better without running roads and railroads all the way through it. I figured that any movement bonus that these would provide is not necessary in the city. [...]

Good point. Indeed, no need for bonus movement in this city for this scenario.