If river hex contains cover terrain question

A new story begins...
The sequel to a real classic: Panzer Corps is back!

Moderator: Panzer Corps 2 Moderators

Post Reply
PoorOldSpike
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by PoorOldSpike »

It always happens, I get sidetracked away frrom PC2 with other games for a few weeks and when I come back to it I've forgotten some fundamentals!
Anybody care to refresh my memory, and it might also serve to help noobs too-
Basically I need to know how combat is affected if a unit is standing with wet feet in a river hex, AND the hex also contains other terrain.
Look, in 1 and 2 the units occupy a minor river hex that also contains thick forest and hills respectively, so do the forest and hills cancel out the detrimental effect of being in a river if attacked by a ground unit?
In 3 the unit is in a river AND swamp, so does he suffer extra bad for having wet feet AND standing up to his goolies in a swamp?
And in 4, the guy is in a frozen river, so does he still suffer a combat penalty even though he's standing on thick ice?
Thanks

Image
Edmon
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:50 pm

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by Edmon »

I can't remember off the top of my head, but I know how you can test it.

Just do a combat in the tile and press "L" to bring the log up. You should see the Penalties and Bonuses in the log.
Scrapulous
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by Scrapulous »

I have reposted your image with a small modification: I have circled in red the icons on each screenshot that answer your questions.
terrain icons.jpg
terrain icons.jpg (306.51 KiB) Viewed 1767 times
Upper left: Close Terrain (from the thick forest), Blocks Supply (from the thick forest), Vulnerable Position (from the river). Vulnerable Position is the one that makes this a risky location. If you hover your mouse cursor over the icon, it will tell you that enemy units will get +4 attack and +4 defense when they attack this hex.

Upper right: High Ground (hills), Close Terrain (hills), Vulnerable Position (river).

Lower right: Vulnerable Position (river).

Lower left: Close Terrain (swamp), Vulnerable Position (swamp, river).


My understanding is that terrain modifiers don't stack with themselves. So that river swamp in image 3 won't be any worse than a river without a swamp or a swamp without a river. You don't get double Vulnerable Position, in other words.

Standing on a river in a forest won't "cancel out." You will be in close terrain because of the forest and in a vulnerable position because of the river. The close terrain can be advantageous (say, if your unit is infantry and the enemy attacker is a tank), but they'll still get bonuses to attack you because you're in the river.

The unit on the frozen river does indeed suffer from Vulnerable Position, as I remember it. I interpret this as the instability of ice and the ease with which an artillery barrage might shatter that ice.
PoorOldSpike
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Thanks Scrapulous, yeah the confusing thing is that hovering the cursor over the red circled bits always gives the same readout even if there's other terrain in the river hex, so it seems other terrain in the hex only affects close combat like you say.
And thanks Edmon, I'll play around with 'L' to see what readouts that gives..:)
PoorOldSpike
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Still on the terrain topic, swamps in PC2 are a mystery to me because it seems only certain types of tanks can attack into or out of them, is that right?
Are there special rules for swamps?
VirgilInTheSKY
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

PoorOldSpike wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:03 pm Still on the terrain topic, swamps in PC2 are a mystery to me because it seems only certain types of tanks can attack into or out of them, is that right?
Are there special rules for swamps?
Though I avoided almost every swamp as long as I could, I don't think there is such a mechanic, any screenshots?
Magni
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:10 pm

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by Magni »

PoorOldSpike wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:03 pm Still on the terrain topic, swamps in PC2 are a mystery to me because it seems only certain types of tanks can attack into or out of them, is that right?
Are there special rules for swamps?
I think you need to be able to enter into the hex to be able to attack into it, and swamps have bad enough movement modifiers that tanks with low base movement cannot even enter them. Similar as to why tanks can have trouble moving around dense forest or mountain hexes. Bad weather and its movement modifiers may exacerbate that.
VirgilInTheSKY
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

Magni wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:17 pm
PoorOldSpike wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:03 pm Still on the terrain topic, swamps in PC2 are a mystery to me because it seems only certain types of tanks can attack into or out of them, is that right?
Are there special rules for swamps?
I think you need to be able to enter into the hex to be able to attack into it, and swamps have bad enough movement modifiers that tanks with low base movement cannot even enter them. Similar as to why tanks can have trouble moving around dense forest or mountain hexes. Bad weather and its movement modifiers may exacerbate that.
IIRC Dense Forest and High Mountain tile both have a special trait telling you that vehicles cannot enter such hexes, so this should not be the modifier problem (or yes if we say that vehicles even don't have movement cost listed, but there is no difference in movement types of heavy tanks and light tanks)
Magni
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:10 pm

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by Magni »

VirgilInTheSKY wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:36 pmIIRC Dense Forest and High Mountain tile both have a special trait telling you that vehicles cannot enter such hexes, so this should not be the modifier problem (or yes if we say that vehicles even don't have movement cost listed, but there is no difference in movement types of heavy tanks and light tanks)
Well, it's less a special trait and more that the movement modifier for those terrain types for tracked is a plain "No". There's no difference in type between light or heavy tanks, but some tanks have plain less movement points to start with. Stack up the negative modifiers from terrain and weather and you could end up with a situation where a hex becomes impassible because even the full movement of a slow tank unit isn't enough to enter it.

In fact, you can observe something like this when forcing enemy units to retreat - if they are pinned against a swamp or similar and don't have enough MP to enter it, they'll surrender.
PoorOldSpike
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Incidentally a guy called 'TheEdmon' (Slitherine's Edmon?) over at youtube has been answering questions (my YT name is TungstenKid) and here are some useful snippets of what TheEdmon said-

"You can't attack a tile if you are not able to move into that tile. A little known and used rule. This means if your tanks movement is not enough to move into the swamp tile (I think for wheeled, swamp is like 4 movement, so a tank with 3 movement) then you can't attack a unit there.
This issue comes up a lot with thick forest and Barren tiles.

f you hover over the "i" in the terrain panel, it will tell you how many points you need to move into that tile.
As long as you can meet the cost, you can move into that tile.
Barren tiles are rare outside of Africa, they stop all movement except foot."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvv54YQshVQ&t=3s
PoorOldSpike
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: If river hex contains cover terrain question

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Ok I hovered over various terrain's i icon and compiled this clear weather/dry ground state list of the number of movement points that moving into terrain requires.
For example tanks with an MP rating of 3 won't be able to move into Swamp which requires 4 MP's if I've interpreted the thing correctly.
(Roads of course do allow entry into anything)

--------------------Tracked--------Wheeled
High Mts--------not allowed------not allowed
Thick Forest----not allowed-----not allowed
Mts----------------- All-----------------All
Swamp--------------4------------------All
Forest---------------2-------------------4
Hills-----------------2-------------------4
Clear----------------3-------------------2

------------------------------------------------------------------

Below: the Mat II is a low MP rating unit (3)

Image


This Matilda II driver pushed his luck and got stuck-

Image
Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps 2”