Encirclement logic - pls explain

[Vorskl]

Grand campaign, Kiev South map, Standard traits (i.e. nothing with perimeter control or a lack of it).
Can someone please explain why my PzIII is encircled despite it having a border with two other units?

[Edmon]

Units block supply in all the tiles around them, unless you have the special trait Perimeter control.

kiev.png (864.72 KiB) Viewed 2807 times

[Vorskl]

Thanks, Edmon, that's what I guessed.
I've never ran into this issue before as I played DLC always with the perimeter control.

Frankly, I find this particular mechanics ridiculous - I have an arty and a tank bordering my encircled unit. Hence I should 'own' these hex. But as you picture illustrates, it is Soviet tanks that own my hexes (!)

[VirgilInTheSKY]

Thanks, Edmon, that's what I guessed.
I've never ran into this issue before as I played DLC always with the perimeter control.

Frankly, I find this particular mechanics ridiculous - I have an arty and a tank bordering my encircled unit. Hence I should 'own' these hex. But as you picture illustrates, it is Soviet tanks that own my hexes (!)

That's why you need Primeter Control.

[Scrapulous]

Thanks, Edmon, that's what I guessed.
I've never ran into this issue before as I played DLC always with the perimeter control.

Frankly, I find this particular mechanics ridiculous - I have an arty and a tank bordering my encircled unit. Hence I should 'own' these hex. But as you picture illustrates, it is Soviet tanks that own my hexes (!)

I think the idea is that the hexes are "contested," meaning that while you have units there, the enemy is so close that you can't conduct effective logistical operations there. It's one of those concepts that works better when the map scale is very small than it does when one hex encompasses an entire city. If you think about it on the Warsaw or Madrid maps, then it makes much more sense - how could you drive supply trucks down the street next to the enemy's armored formation? The larger the map, the less intuitive it is as a rule. I just think of it as one of the things like artillery and aircraft range - a limitation of the core game design and something that is not likely to change.

[Vorskl]

Thanks, Edmon, that's what I guessed.
I've never ran into this issue before as I played DLC always with the perimeter control.

Frankly, I find this particular mechanics ridiculous - I have an arty and a tank bordering my encircled unit. Hence I should 'own' these hex. But as you picture illustrates, it is Soviet tanks that own my hexes (!)

I think the idea is that the hexes are "contested," meaning that while you have units there, the enemy is so close that you can't conduct effective logistical operations there. It's one of those concepts that works better when the map scale is very small than it does when one hex encompasses an entire city. If you think about it on the Warsaw or Madrid maps, then it makes much more sense - how could you drive supply trucks down the street next to the enemy's armored formation? The larger the map, the less intuitive it is as a rule. I just think of it as one of the things like artillery and aircraft range - a limitation of the core game design and something that is not likely to change.

I disagree. My units form a triangle, so there is a common border INSIDE the controlled territory. The PzIII is at the spearhead of my attack. By your logic ALL German panzer groups that were spearheading attacks in 1941-42 would remain without supply (what high-level wikipedia maps dont show is that there was almost always a GAP between German tanks and German infantry walking after).
I think the rule should be - you have a unit on the hex, it's yours. As for noman's land like the two left and right of my tank, these should work AGAINST both parties supply - just like the noman's land was.

[Magni]

I disagree. My units form a triangle, so there is a common border INSIDE the controlled territory. The PzIII is at the spearhead of my attack. By your logic ALL German panzer groups that were spearheading attacks in 1941-42 would remain without supply (what high-level wikipedia maps dont show is that there was almost always a GAP between German tanks and German infantry walking after).
I think the rule should be - you have a unit on the hex, it's yours. As for noman's land like the two left and right of my tank, these should work AGAINST both parties supply - just like the noman's land was.

Your disagreement makes no sense. This "common territory" is still so small that the bordering enemies can still project their presence and contest the access to your exposed unit regardless. Your spearhead has created an extremely narrow bulge with enemies on both sides able to pressure and contest its lines of communication. Your example of german panzer groups in '41 falls flat on its face considering these were much larger formations creating much wider breakthroughs rather than what you're doing here. (You're trying to equate army-size formations to in-game units that roughly represent something around a battalion give the scale in most scenarios.)The whole damn point of Perimeter Control is to allow you to actually do things like this without getting punished for it, so you're basically demanding to get the perk for free.

And guess what? These "no man's land" hexes? They do count for both sides. If they didn't, that 5-strength T-34 right next to your encircled Panzer wouldn't count as encircled, either. Neither would the russian infantry on the right.

[Vorskl]

I disagree. My units form a triangle, so there is a common border INSIDE the controlled territory. The PzIII is at the spearhead of my attack. By your logic ALL German panzer groups that were spearheading attacks in 1941-42 would remain without supply (what high-level wikipedia maps dont show is that there was almost always a GAP between German tanks and German infantry walking after).
I think the rule should be - you have a unit on the hex, it's yours. As for noman's land like the two left and right of my tank, these should work AGAINST both parties supply - just like the noman's land was.

Your disagreement makes no sense. This "common territory" is still so small that the bordering enemies can still project their presence and contest the access to your exposed unit regardless. Your spearhead has created an extremely narrow bulge with enemies on both sides able to pressure and contest its lines of communication. Your example of german panzer groups in '41 falls flat on its face considering these were much larger formations creating much wider breakthroughs rather than what you're doing here. (You're trying to equate army-size formations to in-game units that roughly represent something around a battalion give the scale in most scenarios.)The whole damn point of Perimeter Control is to allow you to actually do things like this without getting punished for it, so you're basically demanding to get the perk for free.

And guess what? These "no man's land" hexes? They do count for both sides. If they didn't, that 5-strength T-34 right next to your encircled Panzer wouldn't count as encircled, either. Neither would the russian infantry on the right.

I'd agree if we were discussing the Jersey map (which is probably the smallest in the game). This Kiev map in the Grand campaign is even larger than the one in DLC; it is ~350 km east to west; we're talking regiments if not divisions here.
Anyhow, looks like most of commenters are happy with some strange mechanics, and there are much larger obvious bugs that no-one fixes, so let it be.

[Magni]

I'd agree if we were discussing the Jersey map (which is probably the smallest in the game). This Kiev map in the Grand campaign is even larger than the one in DLC; it is ~350 km east to west; we're talking regiments if not divisions here.

And even that is STILL not the same as an army. And the 1 unit = 1 battalion scale is the one that works best for the overwhelming majority of scenarios.

[Duedman]

Anyhow, looks like most of commenters are happy with some strange mechanics, and there are much larger obvious bugs that no-one fixes, so let it be.

Well not exactly happy. But willing to accept those mechanics for sake of accessibility.

Its the same with ranges of aircraft on different scaled maps.
Or range of virtually any unit, while you're at it. (Why stop at planes?)

Its always a trade-off. And in these cases im ok with that.

[Vorskl]

I'd agree if we were discussing the Jersey map (which is probably the smallest in the game). This Kiev map in the Grand campaign is even larger than the one in DLC; it is ~350 km east to west; we're talking regiments if not divisions here.

And even that is STILL not the same as an army. ANd the 1 unit = 1 battalion scale is the one that works best for the overwhelming majority of scenarios.

What makes you think so?
SCW is probably battalions given its tiny scale; Grand Campaign maps are HUGE (whole US is split in 3 pieces; Blau is represented with a single (!) map); in DLC 1941 most of Soviet maps mirror Army Group Center and Guderian's 2Pz Gr battles: Smolensk is the Group battle (von Bock); Kiev/Lokhvitsa is a 100% Guderian cosplay; Bryansk is Guderian + 2A; Road to Moscow / Moscow is actually the whole Army Group Center except some of its northern elements.

[Magni]

SCW is probably battalions given its tiny scale; Grand Campaign maps are HUGE (whole US is split in 3 pieces; Blau is represented with a single (!) map); in DLC 1941 most of Soviet maps mirror Army Group Center and Guderian's 2Pz Gr battles: Smolensk is the Group battle (von Bock); Kiev/Lokhvitsa is a 100% Guderian cosplay; Bryansk is Guderian + 2A; Road to Moscow / Moscow is actually the whole Army Group Center except some of its northern elements.

That's some nice cherry-picking of literally naming off the largest-scale scenarios in the game. You may realise that they're in fact still a small minority of the overall nubmer of scenarios, though.

And SCW? A lot of those are if at all even more granular than battalion-scale.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

From what I had seen these days, I have to suggest you forgetting whatever you have learned from OoB and try to remember how PC2 is working, you are almost always talking and thinking in the way OoB does, and refuse to accept that these two are different games with different mechanics. In OoB you have supply line mechanics where linked units keeps each other's supply, but in PC2 there is no such kind of a thing, no supply line, no supplied area, so if you get surrounded, you ARE cut off from the others even if you are adjacent to each other. Game just works this way, nothing about reality or whatsoever.