Hero abilities tier list

[scott_mathieson]

Small changes to the tiers after playing some more:

Fast Rebase - up from D to B.
Envelopment - added a S+ possibility note about combination with Overwhelming Attack, possibly the most insane combination there is.
Field Repairs - down from B to C. The more I calculate and see it in action, the more marginal it proves to be.
First Aid - likewise down from B to C.

in the dlc you will find/buy really strong units early on but with limited amounts to keep them up to strength , field repairs really comes into its own here have it on a strong unit and stop using it for later part of map when things are in your favour letting it get back to full strength for next map.

[GRippie]

Thanks. Just tried this out and really like it. I find it balances some of the exciting, random, and "replay" value benefits of heroes while avoiding the problems of OA/Env etc etc. Don't get me wrong, Env is still a great draw for a hero ( ) but it no longer is a game breaker for me. Thanks for listening!
And keep up the great work.

[CroCop96]

I've tested out this combination once so far and indeed put the unit in reserve duty in that run after some time, as it was making things too easy at times. It's then something I might resort to in particularly difficult encounters, but not forced to do so each mission. In the future when rolling those heroes I will use them on different units, or just retire for prestige (baring maybe the captured equipment run just for more variety in used things).

There is a new game mode that restricts only a single hero per unit (requires starting a new campaign).
Player's General traits got expanded in the latest patch to include several new options. Single hero per unit is a negative trait 'force dispersion'

I like this trait very much!

While normally I would have 1 or 2 ''favorite'' combat units of each main fighting branch (tanks, infantry and artillery) strengthened with 2-3 heroes each and use them as the tip of the spear, elite fighting troops, while the rest would be just (cannon fodder) general purpose doughboys, I now enjoy playing with this trait and having a broader, ''good enough'' selection of decent combat units. For example, in my current Afrika campaign, I'm using a Leadership hero which increases adjacent units' initiative and a enemy units with lower initiative don't shoot back hero in 2 tank regiments of a Panzer Division which I try to always move together.

A total change of force composition paradigm which makes you play more tactically. Definitely a great addition.

[Tassadar]

Some edits made to the list, especially in terms of moving all economic heroes down one tier since as I played more and more, the need for extra prestige is not as important as pure combat oriented traits. Also, Ignores Entrenchment got moved to S tier, since it has such a huge impact on many units that would otherwise struggle against entrenched enemies. Not only does it help combat efficiency, but also saves tons of time when dealing with fortified positions.

[adiekmann]

Some edits made to the list, especially in terms of moving all economic heroes down one tier since as I played more and more, the need for extra prestige is not as important as pure combat oriented traits. Also, Ignores Entrenchment got moved to S tier, since it has such a huge impact on many units that would otherwise struggle against entrenched enemies. Not only does it help combat efficiency, but also saves tons of time when dealing with fortified positions.

Tassadar, Shock Tactics is the equal to Envelopment. It generates the exact same effect when used in conjunction with Overwhelming Attack, as well as when used alone. When they are used alone, both Shock Tactics and Envelopment need to cause it to retreat to force its surrender. Therefore, Shock Tactics will result in the unit's surrender every time too whenever Envelopment does. So they should be on the same tier.

[Tassadar]

Some edits made to the list, especially in terms of moving all economic heroes down one tier since as I played more and more, the need for extra prestige is not as important as pure combat oriented traits. Also, Ignores Entrenchment got moved to S tier, since it has such a huge impact on many units that would otherwise struggle against entrenched enemies. Not only does it help combat efficiency, but also saves tons of time when dealing with fortified positions.

Tassadar, Shock Tactics is the equal to Envelopment. It generates the exact same effect when used in conjunction with Overwhelming Attack, as well as when used alone. When they are used alone, both Shock Tactics and Envelopment need to cause it to retreat to force its surrender. Therefore, Shock Tactics will result in the unit's surrender every time too whenever Envelopment does. So they should be on the same tier.

Thanks, that's a good point, I must have missed that when reading through it earlier. Now changed with a comment, since Shock Tactics is actually superior to Envelopment, as it helps achieve the same affect on more types of units. Envelopment will not work on planes and artillery, while Shock Tactics will. Also, Shock Tactics can be used just to prevent a unit from moving and engaging your forces. For example I'm imaging a situation where de Gaulle's nemesis tank is constantly bombarded by a tactical bomber and not able to move, essentially rendering it useless.

[adiekmann]

Some edits made to the list, especially in terms of moving all economic heroes down one tier since as I played more and more, the need for extra prestige is not as important as pure combat oriented traits. Also, Ignores Entrenchment got moved to S tier, since it has such a huge impact on many units that would otherwise struggle against entrenched enemies. Not only does it help combat efficiency, but also saves tons of time when dealing with fortified positions.

Tassadar, Shock Tactics is the equal to Envelopment. It generates the exact same effect when used in conjunction with Overwhelming Attack, as well as when used alone. When they are used alone, both Shock Tactics and Envelopment need to cause it to retreat to force its surrender. Therefore, Shock Tactics will result in the unit's surrender every time too whenever Envelopment does. So they should be on the same tier.

Envelopment will not work on planes and artillery, while Shock Tactics will. Also, Shock Tactics can be used just to prevent a unit from moving and engaging your forces. For example I'm imaging a situation where de Gaulle's nemesis tank is constantly bombarded by a tactical bomber and not able to move, essentially rendering it useless.

Wow, I was not aware of that. Never thought to put either of them on aircraft before...

[Duedman]

For me, most of those that have the greatest value cannot be judged in absolute terms, but in frequency of use. Zero slots. No arguement here along with a few other very obvious ones that we all would unanimously agree to. But even ones that prove very helpful, the question comes down to "How often?" For example, I think camouflage is great on say an AT. But how often does it actually occur where it makes use of it? That is a key to most of these. How often are you fighting from a river hex? How often does your unit __________?

The best ones are the ones that you can take advantage of every single turn, like Rapid Fire, Zero Slots, Double Attack, unless you of course are not attacking or using it (like adding replacements).

Then, combos...Overwhelming attack is just eh by itself. Paired it with envelopment and...wow! Kind of like oxygen and hydrogen don't help me in the desert unless I have them combined in a water molecule. Other examples of a similar affects exist too.

So it really comes down to:

1. How frequently can you unit take advantage of said hero?
2. Do you have other heroes to really make its worth shine?

I do agree with your general line of thought. But I have to say that the camouflaged 8.8 tends to make an impact "*when it matters*
Partly helped by the AI stupidity of attacking into covered targets again and again.
At first I had Double Support on it. But once it grew more experienced I changed it to 12 overstrength. Because Double Support can actually be bad due to the 4 ammo of the 8.8.
And 3 star / 12 OS usually is enough to kill Str10 tanks.

This beast simply nullified countless tank attacks and therefore got the MVP in many of my missions.
(and of course hidden AA cover at the start is greatly beneficial too).

So if I could chose just one single Hero for the entire campaign, it would probably be the camouflage guy.

[Vorskl]

Tassadar, could you please edit your first post for all the changes that occured since then?
Also, do you think it's possible to indicate a few unit types for which a particular bonus is very good AND for which it wont work properly ?

[adiekmann]

For me, most of those that have the greatest value cannot be judged in absolute terms, but in frequency of use. Zero slots. No arguement here along with a few other very obvious ones that we all would unanimously agree to. But even ones that prove very helpful, the question comes down to "How often?" For example, I think camouflage is great on say an AT. But how often does it actually occur where it makes use of it? That is a key to most of these. How often are you fighting from a river hex? How often does your unit __________?

The best ones are the ones that you can take advantage of every single turn, like Rapid Fire, Zero Slots, Double Attack, unless you of course are not attacking or using it (like adding replacements).

Then, combos...Overwhelming attack is just eh by itself. Paired it with envelopment and...wow! Kind of like oxygen and hydrogen don't help me in the desert unless I have them combined in a water molecule. Other examples of a similar affects exist too.

So it really comes down to:

1. How frequently can you unit take advantage of said hero?
2. Do you have other heroes to really make its worth shine?

I do agree with your general line of thought. But I have to say that the camouflaged 8.8 tends to make an impact "*when it matters*
Partly helped by the AI stupidity of attacking into covered targets again and again.
At first I had Double Support on it. But once it grew more experienced I changed it to 12 overstrength. Because Double Support can actually be bad due to the 4 ammo of the 8.8.
And 3 star / 12 OS usually is enough to kill Str10 tanks.

This beast simply nullified countless tank attacks and therefore got the MVP in many of my missions.
(and of course hidden AA cover at the start is greatly beneficial too).

So if I could chose just one single Hero for the entire campaign, it would probably be the camouflage guy.

I have improved my use of some heroes including Camo. I still use them extensively with AT, AA, and even other units. I learned the value of using one with a tank that also has AT and Artillery Support.

A neat trick to try for those struggling on the Crete map is to escort your Ju-52s with a single Bf 109 that has a camouflage and expert support hero. OS it and then on your first turn carefully fly them together so that the transport aircraft completely surround your special escort fighter. You actually want the AI to see your Ju-52s so that they will attack them. Your camouflaged fighter will then shred most of those pesky Seafires on the AI's first turn!

[Tassadar]

Tassadar, could you please edit your first post for all the changes that occured since then?
Also, do you think it's possible to indicate a few unit types for which a particular bonus is very good AND for which it wont work properly ?

I try to do this regularly, the leading post has 17 edits so far, but it's quite easy to forget things or... not save the edited post - I just noticed I did that last time.

If there's any particular info missing, I'm happy to add it there, but in any case as I play I'll be editing it whenever I get some extra feedback or happen to recall interesting usages.

[Obersturmbannfuhrer]

i think that every hero has a relative value depending on how you play the game, if you like me play with industry connections then field reapir is much better, becuase it keeps your unit with limited suppply healthy, on the other hand in the axis operations dlc's every economy hero is bottom tier because you will have tons of prestige, and there are heroes where have 1 is A+ but having more than one diminishes its value, like ignore entrenchment, the first one (and giving it to your best infantry killer tank) is A+, every other is close to useless, one fast rebase on your best plane is A+ saves you in many situations, more than one is unnecessary again, vigilant is the same, one is A+ on an infantry killer tank, more than one is garbage, scavenger: the first one is good in your surrender tank any other is useless, i like this dynamic evaluation instead of a static tier list, on the other hand zero slot, is always A+ no matter how many you get its value is always the same, double attack: if you play with limited supply you often cant use it in winter scenarios because you only get 1 ammo/turn in a snow storm, so its value has to be adjusted, butcher cant be on the same level as crippling blow, crippling blow is much much better and more versatile you can use it on anything against anything, butcher is limited, "on the roll" this is not in the game anymore im sure i have never seen it lately.... and so on and so on, still a good list for beginners i guess

[adiekmann]

i think that every hero has a relative value depending on how you play the game, if you like me play with industry connections then field reapir is much better, becuase it keeps your unit with limited suppply healthy, on the other hand in the axis operations dlc's every economy hero is bottom tier because you will have tons of prestige, and there are heroes where have 1 is A+ but having more than one diminishes its value, like ignore entrenchment, the first one (and giving it to your best infantry killer tank) is A+, every other is close to useless, one fast rebase on your best plane is A+ saves you in many situations, more than one is unnecessary again, vigilant is the same, one is A+ on an infantry killer tank, more than one is garbage, scavenger: the first one is good in your surrender tank any other is useless, i like this dynamic evaluation instead of a static tier list, on the other hand zero slot, is always A+ no matter how many you get its value is always the same, double attack: if you play with limited supply you often cant use it in winter scenarios because you only get 1 ammo/turn in a snow storm, so its value has to be adjusted, butcher cant be on the same level as crippling blow, crippling blow is much much better and more versatile you can use it on anything against anything, butcher is limited, "on the roll" this is not in the game anymore im sure i have never seen it lately.... and so on and so on, still a good list for beginners i guess

You are absolutely right and it touches upon the point that I made earlier on this thread back in September. Frequency of use.

An interesting experiment that I am currently doing right now is playing the entire DLC over again starting in Spain where I do not allow myself two of any hero until I have one of each. Obviously this requires extensive use of the cheat hero command as well as soon a self-imposed prestige "correction." I'm so far only in early 1939.

But one of the interesting discoveries thus far is the order that I am selecting them (which also gets back to your main point and mine from six months ago) is you can't view each hero in isolation and absolute terms. If you try it yourself, even if just for SCW, you'll soon see what I mean. It also means that I won't have any 2nd hero of Zero Slots, Rapid Fire, Double Attack, or whatever your favorite one is until well into 1941.

Early on you are starving for heroes. By '41 you are swimming in them. I suggest you give my experimental playthrough a try and you might be surprised by the kinds of things you discover about heroes, their relative worth, and how much you value those that go beyond the Top Tier ones. For example, I like to choose Trench Slog as one of my negative traits and then all of sudden Entrenchment Killer xX doesnt' seem that worthless after all. Or, in a perfectly overpowered and unbalanced world of heroes, I'd love for each of my ART, SB, and AA to have a Lethal Attack hero (one of my favorites that I never can have enough of). So it also places more emphasis on whom you attach the hero to, as well as in conjunction with which other heroes.

There's also the question of opportunity costs, to use an economics term. If you are "lucky" enough to randomly get lots of Zero and Reduced Slot heroes, it comes at a cost of other heroes, especially during the first couple of DLCs. Sure you can field a large number of core units, but it also means that you are lacking other critical heroes that buff your attack, defense, or other aspects of the game. If on the other hand you chose nothing but offensively boosting heroes, now you find yourself short on Slot reduction heroes and can't field all the units you want/need. And so on. If you're strong in one, you are short in another since it's not possible to have 40 heroes in Saarland. This becomes and will continue to decrease the farther along we go in the DLCs/war. We can see it now already. Lots of heroes and the law of averages is beginning to take hold. (Which is also why a new tool or design feature to organize, sort, or search for heroes in your collection is needed). Perhaps in SCW and 1939 you should be awarded 2 heroes per scenario, and then later only 1 hero/per 2 scenarios?

Anyway, this is long enough. I hope I succeeded in illustrating my point clearly enough.

[Edmon]

The more I play the more my opinion changes on various heroes.

When I first started, I thought Zero Slots was the best hero in the game. Then I kind of realised that while it is very nice to have, it didn't break anything as such, just made a unit really strong. It is a great hero, but it can't "break" anything so it dropped to A tier in my mind.

The first hero I found that really broke things was Vigilance (because tanks in close combat tiles are all but unstoppable). Once you realise that you can operate a high ground defence unit in a close combat tile, which would normally be a death sentence for it, it's potental starts to be realised. Infantry cannot touch such a unit, since they rely on access to the close combat value to do any damage. Enemy tanks, reduced to 0 defence, get wrecked if they dare attempt the attack at all. As the years roll by and ground defence climbs, you can obtain literal invunerability as long as you remember to (counter intuitively) put your tank in close terrain.

Now as I play with the sillest of traits and really looked to make myself suffer... I have discovered that Lethal is the best hero in the game and... I don't think there is any possibility that it can be unseated from that throne. It's even more powerful than "on the roll" and that hero got banned because I made it look ridicously OP. It was OP, not saying it wasn't. But Lethal with the right unit can kill 5-8 units per turn, from range, with no chance of reprisal.

Have doubts? Watch the crazy that is Lethal...

[Duedman]

Thanks for trying that out. I always was too lazy lol

[Vorskl]

I'd put Consolidator into A-tier with a huge remark it only makes sense with Zero/Reduced Slots on on cheat slot units like Me110 or Strat bombers.
I am re-playing DCL differently now, using overstrength on virtually everything (so a few 3-4 start units) and once I got Zero Slot and Consoldator and Fast Deployment, my 21cm gun became a German WWII version of a modern Scud missile launcher.

[Magni]

The first hero I found that really broke things was Vigilance (because tanks in close combat tiles are all but unstoppable). Once you realise that you can operate a high ground defence unit in a close combat tile, which would normally be a death sentence for it, it's potental starts to be realised. Infantry cannot touch such a unit, since they rely on access to the close combat value to do any damage. Enemy tanks, reduced to 0 defence, get wrecked if they dare attempt the attack at all. As the years roll by and ground defence climbs, you can obtain literal invunerability as long as you remember to (counter intuitively) put your tank in close terrain.

Talking about Vigilance, I think someone goofed with the Bryansk scenario in AO'41? There's a soviet Engineer unit in Bryansk with Vigilance. Which uh, is actually an active detriment for them, given their close defense is higher than their normal ground defense.

Also, enemy tanks don't get wrecked attacking a Vigilance tank in close terrain - it doesn't have the Close Combat trait (only infantry do) and hence will still strike against the normal ground defense of the attacker.

[Tassadar]

I'd put Consolidator into A-tier with a huge remark it only makes sense with Zero/Reduced Slots on on cheat slot units like Me110 or Strat bombers.
I am re-playing DCL differently now, using overstrength on virtually everything (so a few 3-4 start units) and once I got Zero Slot and Consoldator and Fast Deployment, my 21cm gun became a German WWII version of a modern Scud missile launcher.

Edited - I've for now put it on B with a comment about moving it up to A with Reduced Slots and to S with Zero Slots which should correspond the increasing power of the hero combination.

[Edmon]

The first hero I found that really broke things was Vigilance (because tanks in close combat tiles are all but unstoppable). Once you realise that you can operate a high ground defence unit in a close combat tile, which would normally be a death sentence for it, it's potental starts to be realised. Infantry cannot touch such a unit, since they rely on access to the close combat value to do any damage. Enemy tanks, reduced to 0 defence, get wrecked if they dare attempt the attack at all. As the years roll by and ground defence climbs, you can obtain literal invunerability as long as you remember to (counter intuitively) put your tank in close terrain.

Also, enemy tanks don't get wrecked attacking a Vigilance tank in close terrain - it doesn't have the Close Combat trait (only infantry do) and hence will still strike against the normal ground defense of the attacker.

Yeah, my mistake, they don't get access to the close combat value. What I meant to say was that the enemy tank can't normally benefit from any inbuilt defence a close combat tile provides.

I.E. it is perfectly safe for a vigilant tank to park in a city tile and get the benefits of the improved entrenchment values it provides. Normally, of course, you can't because you risk some infantry force marching in and tearing you to bits.

[asuser]

Are there any experiences or thougths about useful hero traits for ships?
Maybe, there is not so much usage because all of the DLC stuff goes mainly around ground troops or airforce.

And... there are needs for additional traits like:

SilentMove (Subs are undetected)
SubKiller (Destroyer detects easily subs)
ZigZag (Destroyer with convoy have better defence values against subs)
BeachMaster (Landing ships are not so vulnerable on landing operations)
FlakDevil (Ships within a convoy have better defence values against bomber)
...