Huns or Ilkhanids, two of a kind or vastly different

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:26 pm

Looking at either Huns or Ilkhanids, masses of LH/bow and cav/bow, the difference between the two seems to be undrilled Huns and drilled Ilkhanids, how much of a difference will the undrilled-ness of the Huns be a hinderance in comparison to drilled Ilkhanids?

Huns
4 TC
7 BGs LH, Unpr, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs Cav Unpr, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs Cav Unpr, Ave, Undr, Bow, Sword
2 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
2 BGs Cav Prot, Sup, Undr, Lance, Sword

Ilkhanid
4 TC
7 BGs LH, Unpr, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
2 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Undr, Lance, Sword
1 BGs Kn Heavy Arm, Sup, Undr, Lance, Sword

david53 · Post by **david53** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:50 pm

Irmin wrote:Looking at either Huns or Ilkhanids, masses of LH/bow and cav/bow, the difference between the two seems to be undrilled Huns and drilled Ilkhanids, how much of a difference will the undrilled-ness of the Huns be a hinderance in comparison to drilled Ilkhanids?

Huns
4 TC
7 BGs LH, Unpr, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs Cav Unpr, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs Cav Unpr, Ave, Undr, Bow, Sword
2 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
2 BGs Cav Prot, Sup, Undr, Lance, Sword

Ilkhanid
4 TC
7 BGs LH, Unpr, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
2 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Undr, Lance, Sword
1 BGs Kn Heavy Arm, Sup, Undr, Lance, Sword

To be honest co for the Ilkhanid the drilled make a huge difference with shooty cav, I would drop the lancers add another BG Cavalry armoured.
dave

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:11 pm

Undrilled cavalry need a CMT to expand without moving and cannot expand and move. Drilled cavalry can always expand and can expand and move with a CMT. It doesn't sound like a lot but in practice it is quite a significant advantage.

I would be tempted if you can find a way to do it to have the unprotected Hunnic cavalry as protected although by the look of it you are going to struggle to find the points. Also it looks to me like the Hunnic list is illegal

You can only have 6 bases of lancers unless you take an ally. If you take an ally then I would drop the unprotected average cavalry, get a BG of LF bow and use the spare points to protect the other cavalry BG or something like that.

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:02 pm

hammy wrote:Undrilled cavalry need a CMT to expand without moving and cannot expand and move. Drilled cavalry can always expand and can expand and move with a CMT. It doesn't sound like a lot but in practice it is quite a significant advantage.

I would be tempted if you can find a way to do it to have the unprotected Hunnic cavalry as protected although by the look of it you are going to struggle to find the points. Also it looks to me like the Hunnic list is illegal You can only have 6 bases of lancers unless you take an ally. If you take an ally then I would drop the unprotected average cavalry, get a BG of LF bow and use the spare points to protect the other cavalry BG or something like that.

My mistake it's 3 TC and 1 Ally TC

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:03 pm

Irmin wrote:
hammy wrote:Undrilled cavalry need a CMT to expand without moving and cannot expand and move. Drilled cavalry can always expand and can expand and move with a CMT. It doesn't sound like a lot but in practice it is quite a significant advantage.

I would be tempted if you can find a way to do it to have the unprotected Hunnic cavalry as protected although by the look of it you are going to struggle to find the points. Also it looks to me like the Hunnic list is illegal You can only have 6 bases of lancers unless you take an ally. If you take an ally then I would drop the unprotected average cavalry, get a BG of LF bow and use the spare points to protect the other cavalry BG or something like that.
My mistake it's 3 TC and 1 Ally TC

In which case I would drop the average unarmoured cavalry and use the points for protecting the other cavalry and buying light foot bow. I really can't see the use of one BG of average cavalry in the army. Unprotected superiors are OK and can always give rear support at a push, average is just a weak link.

You might want to make some of the LH average as well if you are tight on points.

BlackPrince · Post by **BlackPrince** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:19 pm

For Ilkhanid Mongol I am going to try;

1xFC
2xTC
3x best equipped cavalry Sup Arm'd drilled bow sword
1x other cavalry ave prot drilled bow sword
5x light cavalry LH unprot ave drilled bow sword
1x kurdish archers LF unprot ave undrilled bow
1x Kurdish cavalry sup arm'd undrilled lance sword
1x Hospitalliers Kn sup hvy arm'd drilled lance sword

12 Bgs for 794 points, though I am concerned that the Bg count may be a bit low for a shooty army.

Keith

Huaxtec15mm · Post by **Huaxtec15mm** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:22 am

Vastly different I would say.

My 1000 point-ish (untested!) Ilkhanids:

2x FC
2x TC
12x "Best Equipped Cav" (Armored, Superior, Bow, Swordsmen)
4x "Kurdish Cavalry" (Armored, Average, Lancer, Swordsmen)
4x "Cuman Light Horse" (from Georgian allies list) (Unprotected, Average, Bowmen, Swordsmen)
4x "Georgian Nobles" (Armored, Superior, Bow, Swordsmen)
4x "Armenian Knights" (Heavily Armored Superior, Lancer, Swordsmen)
4x "Armenian Spearmen" (Medium Infantry, protected, light spear)
4x "Armenian Archers" (Medium Foot, unprotected, Bow)
4x "Kurdish Bow" (Light Foot, unprotected , Average, Bow)
24x "Light Mongol Horse" (Unprotected, Superior, Bow, Swordsmen)

I welcome any input!

Also Ilkhanid fans, dont forget to go here for a free Ilkhanid Scenario:

viewtopic.php?t=10624

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:39 am

My Ilkhanids - won and open tourney with them however they didn't do so well in the second tourney (armies I fought in the second tourney where better matched). They are really a Shock mounted army with some Shooty stuff in support and to help the delivery.
4* TC (1 ally)
3* 4 LH Sup Bow/Sw
2* 4 Cav Sup Prot, Bow/Sw
1*4 Hospitallers
1*4 Crossbow
1*4 Armenian Knights
1*4 Medium Foot Armenians
1*4 Lf Armenian Archers
1*4 Kurd Lancers
1*4 Cav Sup Arm, Bow/Sw

I believe the advantage to these guys compared to other shooty cav is you can get the 3BG of shock mounted with 2*Knights and the Kurds. All the mounted is superior...

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:38 am

david53 wrote:

To be honest co for the Ilkhanid the drilled make a huge difference with shooty cav, I would drop the lancers add another BG Cavalry armoured.
dave

Ilkhanid
4 TC
7 BGs LH, Unpr, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
3 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs Kn Heavy Arm, Sup, Undr, Lance, Sword

796pts

How well will these morph into Hülegü's brother Kublai's Yuan when the lists come out?

Also how different are Ilkhanids from Huns and other Steppe armies in looks so i can use them as multiple armies? Essex do some nice Huns with shaven head and scalplock but I'm n ot sure the Mongol's wore their hair like that.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:57 am

I like:

2 * 4 Cavalry Drilled Superior Armoured Bow/Sw
1 * 4 Cavalry Drilled Superior Protected Bow/Sw
3 * 4 Lt Horse Drilled Superior Unprotected Bow/Sw
1 * 4 Kights Drilled Superior Heavily Armoured Lance/Sw

Ally
2 * 4 Kights Unrilled Superior Heavily Armoured Lance/Sw
1 * 4 LightFoot Undrilled Average Unprotected Bow
2 * 4 MedFt Undrilled Average Protected Light Spear

3 generals (including 1 ally)

12 BGs and all the fighting troops are superior
super manouverability with the only 2 undrilled fighting troops (the armenian knights) having a general to drive them about

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:25 am

Only 1 of your Armenian allied knight BGs can be Heavily Armoured as there is a minimum of 4 Armoured ones.

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:51 am

Decided to go the "pure" Ilkhanid route:

Ilkhanid
3 TC
1 FC
7 BGs LH, Unpr, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
4 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword

Figurewise I know they can morph into Mongol Conquest and Kublai Khan's Yuan but when Empires of The Dragon comes out will the list be morphable?

Who does the best Mongol figures and can different manufacturers be mixed well.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:03 am

allain Touller miniatures has a great range of mongols that are essex sized so mix well with them while providing variety to the more static essex chaps.

anthony

Irmin wrote:Decided to go the "pure" Ilkhanid route:

Ilkhanid
3 TC
1 FC
7 BGs LH, Unpr, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword
4 BGs Cav Arm, Sup, Dr, Bow, Sword

Figurewise I know they can morph into Mongol Conquest and Kublai Khan's Yuan but when Empires of The Dragon comes out will the list be morphable?

Who does the best Mongol figures and can different manufacturers be mixed well.

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:35 pm

expendablecinc wrote:allain Touller miniatures has a great range of mongols that are essex sized so mix well with them while providing variety to the more static essex chaps.

anthony

Would the Huns with scalplocks from the Essex range work well as Mongol light horse as well, they look very nice figures but unsure whether the Mongols had scalplocks or kept a full head of hair

Huaxtec15mm · Post by **Huaxtec15mm** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:14 pm

Irmin wrote:
expendablecinc wrote:allain Touller miniatures has a great range of mongols that are essex sized so mix well with them while providing variety to the more static essex chaps.

anthony

Would the Huns with scalplocks from the Essex range work well as Mongol light horse as well, they look very nice figures but unsure whether the Mongols had scalplocks or kept a full head of hair

Essex just released two new packs of Ilkhanid Horse Archers that look great.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:44 pm

BlackPrince wrote:For Ilkhanid Mongol I am going to try;

1xFC
2xTC
3x best equipped cavalry Sup Arm'd drilled bow sword
1x other cavalry ave prot drilled bow sword
5x light cavalry LH unprot ave drilled bow sword
1x kurdish archers LF unprot ave undrilled bow
1x Kurdish cavalry sup arm'd undrilled lance sword
1x Hospitalliers Kn sup hvy arm'd drilled lance sword

12 Bgs for 794 points, though I am concerned that the Bg count may be a bit low for a shooty army.

Keith

I can understand taking the knights but i would drop the LF and the Lancers. The lights will get picked on and the lancers if i remember cost 64 points you could us the points saved in taking extra Light Horse just a thought.
Dave

BlackPrince · Post by **BlackPrince** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:52 am

For figures I just brought a 100 Euros from allain Touller miniatures, they are great figures with different poses but they are all Mongols I would have liked some Cumans and Turks to mix in.

I have assumed two lancer units are better one, in theory it gives you some hitting power to break up the enemy line if the skirmishing tactics are not working. Once I have finished painting my Army I will let you know if it works or I am ordering extra LH figures.

Keith

BlackPrince · Post by **BlackPrince** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:55 am

Just thinking about my list and what some people have said;

If I use 4x KN hvy Arm'd lance and kurds cav 4x Arm'd lance do I really need cavalry 3x(4x cav arm'd bow sword) and 4x cav prot bow sword or would 2x(4x cav arm'd bow sword) and 2x(4x cav prot bow sword) be better? This would allow me to upgrade the LF to LH and be exactly 800 pts. It would be all mounted, I guess I could dismount some of my LH or Cav if the terrain is looking a bit iffy.

Keith

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:49 am

Looking at expanding the Huns eastward and using Hepthalites.

Hepthalite Huns
4 TC
7 BGs x4 Horse Archers LH, Unpr, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
1 BGs x8 Levy Foot MF, Unpr, Poor, Undr, Bow
2 BGs x4 Nobles Cav Arm, Sup, Undr, Bow, Sword
2 BGs x4 Elephant Escorts MF Prot, Ave, Undr, Heavy Weapon
2 BGs x2 Elephants

BlackPrince · Post by **BlackPrince** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:58 am

How do you plan to use your Elephants? If you are going to use them as your main melee troops then I think you need more Elephant BGs.

Keith

Huns or Ilkhanids, two of a kind or vastly different

Huns or Ilkhanids, two of a kind or vastly different

Re: Huns or Ilkhanids, two of a kind or vastly different

Re: Huns or Ilkhanids, two of a kind or vastly different