Mercenary Hoplites

[rbodleyscott]

I suppose another alternative would be to go the other way and keep mercenary hoplites as are and downgrade citizen hoplites to below average (ie not raw. so less of a POA drop) and unmanouverable.

The lists already have plenty of Raw Hoplites to represent the less martial cities.

[Geffalrus]

I'm definitely against this change. It would turn mercenary hoplites from having a distinct and useful role in the army, to just be something you upgrade from citizen hoplites or downgrade to citizen hoplites depending on how much spare change you have left in your pocket after buying everything.

But they - don't - have a distinct and useful role. They're more expensive citizen hoplites who can rotate slightly more if the general is in range and not in melee. They fail at the fundamental role of heavy infantry, which is provide either 1) cost effective killing power or 2) cost effective line holding power. Mercenary hoplites do neither. If you want more maneuverable infantry, that's what medium foot are for. Thureophoroi cost the same as citizen hoplites and are more maneuverable - and - can go in rough. Merc hoplites cost more than Thureos and citizen hoplites and are less effective at both roles.

Compare that to dismounted cavalry in the early medieval era who are harder to break and who can more reliably win 1v1s with average protected spear units.

[pompeytheflatulent]

I'm definitely against this change. It would turn mercenary hoplites from having a distinct and useful role in the army, to just be something you upgrade from citizen hoplites or downgrade to citizen hoplites depending on how much spare change you have left in your pocket after buying everything.

But they - don't - have a distinct and useful role. They're more expensive citizen hoplites who can rotate slightly more if the general is in range and not in melee. They fail at the fundamental role of heavy infantry, which is provide either 1) cost effective killing power or 2) cost effective line holding power. Mercenary hoplites do neither. If you want more maneuverable infantry, that's what medium foot are for. Thureophoroi cost the same as citizen hoplites and are more maneuverable - and - can go in rough. Merc hoplites cost more than Thureos and citizen hoplites and are less effective at both roles.

Compare that to dismounted cavalry in the early medieval era who are harder to break and who can more reliably win 1v1s with average protected spear units.

Attach a few mercenary hoplites to a cavalry wing, and they can counter elephants and lancers, or drive off multiple light spear cavalry (either by charging directly or their proximity cause the enemy light spear cavalry to evade from an even cavalry fight) clearing the way for your own cavalry to roll up the flank of the main line. Thureophoroi can't do the job since as soon as they move onto open ground their cohesion checks fighting heavy foot or cavalry becomes horrendous, typically around 27% pass chance. Citizen hoplites can fill the role somewhat but eventually they will be outmaneuvered or you will be forced to commit light horse as semi-permanent traffic cops to get them where they need to go.